Recall that I entered this discussion because you sent a note that basically
said our numbers are wrong,
Waren not quite that. I just stated, your Numbers fit not the McCoy Programm
output, that I complemented to state BC , not just Cw. Neither I stated, where
the Fault could be, just that there is one (Your Side, My Side, McCoy).
that we were not considering the correct physics and math,
If you still use G1 for your slender Bullets, I hold that up. You will notice
Drag over Speed depends quite a bit on Shape. Peijsa’s Figure 4 shows that quite
and that we should become familiar with Bob McCoy's work if we intend to do
this correctly. None of those statements were correct and they assumed many
things about us that also were not correct. What would be your reaction if
someone stated that about your work without more than a superficial
understanding of what you were doing?
If I thought, that would be the Case my Feelings would be less than warm, much
less. But let’s clear that up. I just wonder how you get those claimed high BC’s
and how you can predict Long Range Behaviour with G1. With Long Range, I mean
Bullets entering the transonic Zone (or even slower). Here may lie the reason of
the Misfit, I see. Now, that you decided to keep those Trajectory data secret, I
cannot proof or disproof, whether your stated truly high BC’s fit with my
understanding of BC and trajectory.
I follow d’Antonio and Arthus Peijsa’s Work in this field. It would have been an
intellectual Exercise, to work on those Range – Speed – Pairs. I can also see no
Way, how such shared Knowledge could hurt your (even if intended, which is not
so) Interests. What bad could I do with Data for one or two Bullets? Anyhow,
they are yours and that’s it.
As Your, from Radar Date derived, BC’s are so much different, than my McCoy
calculated ones, I can only accept the Fact and later, when my Bullets are ready
measure them. I’ll keep you posted.
Dear Mr. Boday,
thank You for Your Mail. I cannot understand how Lost river
Ballistics stays in Business, when so many Folks show up to tell, the LRB
Bullets "in reality simply do not work as advertised." I have not sold a lot to
America, where I suppose You com from, but read this (I supply the EMail
separately, but put them never on the Web, to avoid Spam!)>:
that's one Problem with Solids, that are not designed for low
Friction. read below, a third Party found for my Drive low Friction Band Bullet
compared with a standard FMJ.
compare two 7,6 mm Bullets, namely a conventional 7,6 mm 9,5 g
M80 Ful Metal Jacket Bullet und the 2004 7,6 mm
Lutz Möller Geschoß. Die Press test measured Force over
Length. Die Result of 40 averaged Press measurements follow.
Hello Mr. Möller,
The ballistic coefficient (BC) of a bullet for standard
conditions is normally available from the bullet manufacturer. It should be
noted that not all bullet manufacturers necessarily compute BC’s using the
standard military G1 ballistic table. This is sometimes done to make their
bullets appear superior to other brands of bullets. There are also different
atmospheric conditions applied by bullet manufacturers, which results in slight
The ARMY STANDARD METRO atmosphere is to my knowledge used by
Sierra Bullets and Hornady Bullets. The somewhat denser ICAO STANDARD ATMOSPHERE
is to my knowledge used by Speer Bullets and Nosler Bullets. Lost River tend to
use yet another atmosphere at sea level that has a temperature of 50o
F (10o C), a barometric pressure of 29.53 inches of mercury (1000
hPa), and a relative humidity of 70%. The ammo temperature is 70o F
C). Assuming this is correct working with BC’s without knowing how they were
established is somewhat tricky.
Lost River state the Chey-Tac is the first bullet/rifle system
that utilizes, what they call the balanced flight projectile. Mr. Jensen
explains that to do balanced flight you have to balance the linear drag with the
rotational drag to keep the very fine nose (meplat) of the bullet pointed direct
into the oncoming air. It results in very little precession and yaw at extreme
range and allows accurate flight back through transonic. This has been a
here-to-fore very hard thing to do, in small arms. Mathematically you are at a
great disadvantage trying to do balanced flight with a lead core bullet. The
rotational mass/surface area ratio is too high.
Not only EMS Arms but also other high-end manufacturers like
Prairie Gun Works with its Timberwolf Super Magnum Tactical are offering
complete rifles ($ 4000+) and actions ($ 1800+) for the
408 Chey-Tac. This Canadian 3-lug bolt-action can handle 4,5” (114 mm) long
cartridges and was specifically designed for the 338 Lapua Magnum and the 408
The ARMY STANDARD METRO atmosphere was established at the U.S.
Army Aberdeen Proving Ground and was used for many years by the U.S. Army as the
atmosphere for which all standard firing tables were computed. Manufacturers of
commercial ammunition also adopted this standard atmosphere, and it is still in
use by major manufacturers of commercial ammunition and bullets. In the Army
Standard Metro, the atmosphere at sea level has a temperature of 59o
F (15o C), a barometric pressure of about 29.5275 inches of mercury
(999,92 hPa), and a relative humidity of 78%. The atmospheric density under
these conditions is about 0,0751 pounds per cubic foot (1,203 kg/m3).
The ICAO STANDARD ATMOSPHERE was defined by the International
Civil Aviation Organization and it was adopted in the late 1950's as the
standard atmosphere for all of the U.S. armed forces. In the ICAO standard
atmosphere, the atmosphere at sea level has a temperature of 59o
F (15o C), a barometric pressure of about 29.921 inches of mercury
(1013,25 hPa), and a relative humidity of 0%. The atmospheric density under
these conditions is about 0,0765 pounds per cubic foot (1,225 kg/m3).
The 408 Chey-Tac is based on the old low pressure (2.400 bar)
cartridge 505 Magnum Gibbs.
The .408" Chey-Tac is thicker in the web and has been
redesigned and metallurgical strengthened to handle high pressures safely! The
case capacity is ~10,71 cm3. Powder weights are about 8,10 - 8,94
grams. With the 419-grain bullet it has according to Lost River a V0
of ~915 m/s. They claim to get 10 reloads out of the case under ~4.830 bar
operating pressure. There is also a 305-grain 0,611 BC bullet for the Chey-Tac
developed which reaches a claimed Vo of ~1067 m/s. The barrel of the
$ 7000+ EDM Arms .408" Chey-Tac Intervention is 29,5", 1:13 RH twist, eight
0,4080" grooves, 0,4010" bore 0,050" land width, square cut, no taper. Mr.
Jensen expects the Chey-Tac will become a popular case among wildcatters and
will be necked down to 338-calibre.
H.C.F. de Nie, Samstag, 1. Februar 2003 10:00
Scope 4.5 cm high mounted. Calculate from 0 m each 200 m to
The .408 Chey-Tac cartridges fires a novel, computer designed
419 gr solid proprietary copper nickel alloy projectile that provides sub MOA
accuracy to the limits of existing military riflescopes; i.e. 2270 meters (2500
The .408 Chey-Tac projectiles are cut with twin-spindle CNC
lathes with a final size process through pressure dies to bring the OD
variations to less than 1/50 millionth. These projectiles and match quality
cartridge cases will be available through Lost River Ballistic Technologies,
Unlike other military cartridge projectiles, the .408 Chey-Tac
projectile remains on its original trajectory course during transonic and
subsonic phases of flight.
Ballistic coefficient of .408 Chey-Tac projectile averages
0.945 to 2000 meters (2200 yards) and drops to the low 0.900s to 2800 meters
The .408 Chey-Tac projectile enters the transonic zone at 2100
meters (2300 yards).
The .408 Chey-Tac projectile was tracked to 3660 meters (4000
yards) by Doppler Radar when the gun was fired at a 7-degree slant angle.
but Lost River delivers
Aerodynamic Calculations for laminar Bow and turbulent Shaft give 0,877 BC, but
all laminar flow would yield BC 0,964. The truth with Projectiles under 20 mm
Diameter lies somewhere in the Middle, near 0,92. So the LRB-claimed BC 0,945 BC
The .408" Chey Tac asks for .408" Grove and 0,400" Land
Calibre, hence the Name. To fire a sub-groove-calibre Bullet, unless pushed by
sealing and driving a Sabot, means the Bullet will not seal the Barrel against
the Gas pressure of several thousand bar. Hence fast high pressured Gases will
blast by the Bullet surface, evaporate the Copper-Nickel-Alloy. The Metal gases
then condense on the Barrel walls, both the Groves and the Lands. While such
sub-grove-calibre-design is common with solids, the fowling is still enormous.
The Reason why Solids-manufactures build such too small Bullets is to reduce the
Bullets otherwise prohibitively high Engrave forces vie the Lead and Throat into
the grove calibred Rifle. So LRB, like other Solid Manufacturers, solves a
Problem with another Problem.
The right Way would be a low friction Design with minimum width
Drive Bands, instead of a Solid. LRB claims, they calibrate the turned Bullets
to very tight Tolerances after turning. That is all in vain, when the Target
dimensions are off a meaningful = sealing Specification anyway.
Good CNC-Manufacturers can turn repetitively and economically
thin Drive Bands to a Specification that both seals and reduces Friction.
Most Solids require about 400 – 450 bar initial Pressure to
move the bullet into the Throat. A Low-friction-minimum-Width-Drive-Band-Design
allows meagre 100 – 150 bar to allow the Bullet to engrave and move, enlarging
the Powder room in the Cartridge after the Bullet. Ron Weatherby pioneered that
Concept in America with his rather long cylindrical Leads before the conical
Throat some 50 Years ago. The German Magnum 8x68S Cartridge had the
Long-Throat-Concept for the same Reason already 1939.
A Low-friction-minimum-Width-Drive-Band-Design like the LM-105
or Lutz Möller Geschoß, see intellectual Property) allows with any Cartridge to
upload the Bullet with faster Powder to increase the Muzzle speed at a given
Pressure level. Muzzle Speed will with the same Bullet weight exceed those of
jacketed Lead Bullets (engraving Pressure usually around 250 bar) an by far
exceed that of Solids, even of the now common sub calibre Designs.
What an undersized Bullet means for Accuracy, must not be
discussed, as that should be known widely.
Now let's see what what Pressure can do. It should push the
Bullet up the Barrel, you might think. Well, first the Lands must engrave into
the Bullet. While no own Data from LRB J40 Bullet were taken, comparative Solids
needs rather high 400 bar initial Pressure to move the Bullet into the Rifles.
The low friction LM Lutz Möller Geschoß just ask for 100 bar to accelerate
swiftly Throat. Therefore with the Low-Friction-Design more Powder may be
stuffed into the Case. Note: this Example goes for a blown up .408” Chy Tac Case
with Reamers by Dave Kiff from Pacific Reamers, yealding 172 grain Water Case
Capacity, well above the ,,standard” Size. But what is standard with a Wildcat
.408" Chey Tac
11,17 ml Case Capacity, 914 mm Barrel,
LRB J40 27,15 g Bullet with 400 bar initial Pressure
|Ramshot Big Boy
LM low Friction 27,15 g Bullet with 100 bar initial
|Ramshot Big Boy
|PC Clermont PCL 517
The LRB J40 Bullet is aerodynamically sound, near optimal,
but already on the Stability limits with the common 330 mm or 5,63° Twist.
For Stabilities Sake the Option to elongate the Bullets cannot be exercised.
The Haack minimum Drag Nose will improve the BC in the second Digit only.
Also less than 3% Speed can be gained. A Hope would be to use Norma MRP-2,
to improve Speed, but unfortunately currently no Data exist.
The overall Improvement is less than 5%. Still
while shooting Matches, the less Barrel warms less, the Drive bands
clean Powder residue, the Bullet fouls less, so you shoot longer
To design a further improved Bullet would require shorter
Twist. Then the BC would gain and hence
Wind drift could be noticeably reduced.
Dear Mr. de Nie,
pleas read also .408" Chey Tac
JohnTaylor's .408 Chey Tac in the German Horneber Cases,
derived form the ancient .505 Magnum Gibbs is a fine Cartridge in its own Right,
i agree. Please supply me with Bullet Lenghts for both 408 Bullets, so I can
develeop some loads. Above you find the
.408 Chey Tac Bullet Flight. While that Performance surely qualifies for a
Long Range Sniper Rifle, the Guns are a bit heavy to carry in Afghanistan
Mountains upwards. Also the Bullets not yet fully utilize the Cartridges
Potential, as the Twists are rather long, or with 5,74° not really steep.
Therefore I delveloped the LM-105 Bullet for the .338" Lapua
Magnum, exceeding the 93,5 mm CIP Length up to 105 mm, hence the name. Shot from
a 8,75° a Gain twist Barrel to launch the longest
possible Twist stabilized Bullet, exploiting the Case potential fully. With
a slightly lower BC, I shall get into the same Performance region, but at much
lesser Weight, Recoil, Flash and Noise. While beeing easier to shoot, I belive
the overall Accuracy will outshine the bigger Hammers, like the .408 Chey Tac
and the .50 BMG.
You are invited to show your Performance in a Long Range
Competition 1 – 2 km in windy Condition, when the Rifle is ready, probably
Summer 2003 in Klietz, in Germany.
I am interested in this bullet, LM - 105. Is there a way i can
order this .338" ammo?
Troy, Samstag, 8. März 2003 03:01
LM-105 are available. My Project is not as far, that we can
shoot, as the Action is not ready yet. But beware! With 6,5 calibre length and
it’s Haack Design you will
need about 9° Twist, or 20 Calibres or in this Case 175 mm or 7 Inch to
stabilize it. To not strip the Drivebands you need a specially designed Barrel
with progressive Twist, that Lothar
Walther GmbH manufactures, so you would need to ask there for the Barrel.
You may be interested to market the Action, once it’s ready in the U.S.A.
It’s main benefits are twofold
No Movement, from balanced ( m ass wise) Design to
limit asymmetric shot induced Movements
Extremely quick Ignition, by short, lightweight Fire
pin with short stiff Spring and short (3,8 mm) Way
The Window opens 100 mm length. Modifications are possible.
So I am just the Spiritus Rector and Designer of this Project. The Business is
done by the respective Sponsors themselves. Please Contact Mr. Gerard Schultz
for the Bullets and Dr. Frank Walther for the Barrel. I shall talk about the
Action, when it soon shall be ready .
Sincerely, Lutz Möller
I have written you previously. Please keep me informed on progress for your
LM-105 which I hope to be able to try in my .408 Cheytac wildcat. Do you have
any made in any size, that you could send one for me to study? Hope you will get
Randy Cullinan, Montag, 24. November 2003 21:23
Randy, we are in the Process to make the Shaft for our Rifle.
Please ask again later. Sincerely Lutz
Lutz, Does this mean you don't have a LM-105 sample , you can send , in any
i have LLM-105 Samples in .338" Calibre for the .338 Lapua Magnum. We send no
Samples. We sell prepaid Product.
The LM-105 for the 338 LM is made to shoot a Contest with a special Rifle with a
long Gain Twist Barrel with final 9 Degrees Twist. Action and Barrel are ready.
The Shaft is currently beeing made. You would only be able to shoot the LM-105
out of such special Barrel, because it is 6,5 Calibres long. So this Endeavour
is not for commercial Purpose but for Propaganda. It will proof something,
namely you can outshoot a .50BMG on long Ranges (1 km or so) in Wind. To show
that in Public is the Purpose. Theoretically it is possible, but practical Proof
is of even greater Value.
The LM-105 is a Bullet for a standard .338" Lapua Magnum, but 105 mm long, hence
the Name. Compare it below to the .50" BMG.
Our LM-105 Bullets BC is almost equal to the measured BC of
0,95 of the .510" C al . Hornady-A-Max left. The .338 LM shoots the LM-105
faster, the Rifle will be lighter and handier. Recoil will be much less and
Wind drift about equal.
The Result shall open the Eyes of those, who believe you must
have a .50 Cal Rifle for long Range Sniper Purposes. I object. Firepower is
enough available. Precision is enough available. But all that is to heavy and
bulky. So I first proof, the Bullet can do it. Next i design a Rifle for Field
purpose , much different than the "World record rifle". Now, coming back to your
Email. I understand you would like Bullets for your .408" CheyTac Rifle. As i
cannot know the Dimension of Your .408 CheyTac, i ask you for Drawings. State
the Twist length too. Then i could design a Bullet and predict its Performance.
You may then order minimum 500 Bullets. If you would like Copperbullets for
Hunting Purposes, please have a look at
Lutz Möller Geschosse. We call those Bullets Lutz Möller Geschosse,
abbreviated KJG, means Copper Hunt Bullet.
Picture: .338 Lapua Magnum Hunt Bullet,
and 8 mmS
Bullets are available. More shall come. See some 6,5 mm KJG Photos. LM 2005 Most
Calibres are there in "Lutz Möller KJG"
If Your Question is not sufficiently answered, please call
Sincerely, Lutz Möller
Hello Mr. Möller,
The data about the (experimental) .408" Chey Tac projectiles came from Tactical
Shooter Magazine. The pictures are small and also came from this magazine. I
think this magazine no longer exists.
I cannot give a definite answer to your question if the mentioned 9 ogive is in
inches or calibres. I have never heard that Americans use inches to describe
ogives. Most probable is that a 9-calibre tangent ogive is meant. I got this
explanation about ogives from the website of bullet manufacturer Northwest
http://www.customprojectile.com Most rifle bullets use a tangent ogive,
which is designated in S-numbers (short for Spitzer, or pointed, in German). The
S-number is just the radius of the arc that forms the nose. A spitzer bullet
typically uses from 4 to 6 calibres of radius length. When we specify a S6
ogive, it means a curve drawn with a compass set six calibres apart, starting
tangent (right at) the shank and crossing the centreline of the bullet. The
smallest possible S number is 1/2 (0.5) because that is exactly half the
calibre, and draws a perfectly round nose.
The problem with wildcats is one essentially never knows who is doing what and
how performance and other characteristics are being improved or changed. The
professional approach to obtain high performance cartridges is to utilize a
large volume case as a parental case for a usually smaller calibre than the
original design and to make it suitable for much higher pressures. This method
was used to create cartridges like the .300 and .338 Lapua Magnum from the .416
Rigby and the .408 Chey Tac from the .505 Gibbs. The do it yourself approach to
"improve" the performance of cartridges is to blow out the original case in an
"improved" chamber. This usually sharpens the shoulders of the case and
decreases the body taper so that the powder capacity increases. This increase
and hence the V0 gain are limited. An increased case volume .338 Lapua Magnum
variant I have heard of is the .338 Yogi. I do not know much about the .338
Yogi, but if you want to find out more about it look at the website of Tooley
Custom Rifles http://www.tooleyrifles.com
in the Reamer List - Proprietary Calibres section. You probably have to pay a
license fee to use the .338 Yogi chambering. If the .300 and .338 Yogi resemble
the limit you can reach by blowing out the case of your choice I do not know. I
would not be surprised if there were other “improved” variants in existence
based on this case. To increase your case capacity to bullet weight ratio maybe
scaling down your bullet somewhat (8 mm / .30-calibre?), whilst keeping the
Ballistic Coefficient and Sectional Density at the same level, is also an option
to explore to get more V0. If you want to blow out and/or neck down
the Lapua cartridge case you have to decide for yourself.
I hope you found this helpful for your
H.C.F. de Nie
Gesendet: Freitag, 29. Juli 2005 05:07
Cc: Stan Stennett
Betreff: 50 bmg Wild cat with a Chey Tac bullet -
419 gr the center bullet in the chart below.
When you get time please give this initial concept some thought?
We have not talked yet this year. I have been working with photography and
trying to find my regular trade in manufacturing through managing multiple
manufacturing plants. A wildcat 50 BMG necked down to a .408 Chey Tac with a
long barrel to have an very fast bullet with a good B/C that has plenty room for
lots of the right type of powder.
The barrel would be a long barrel for competition lapped per the tapes taking
every step possible to enhance accuracy. I am not set on a stock but I keep
thinking about the Colonel Mustard style Benchrest stock, but with a burl
wood looking stock. I do think it will do good at Benchrest shooting,
particularly with a muzzle brake, so it would not take my arm off on.
Min. Twist Required
# .408 (Not Loaded)
$32.50 per 20
# .408 (Not Loaded)
$32.50 per 20
Lutz Möller LM-105
150 € per 100
Like I mentioned, please give the wildcat some thought
using the .408 bullet with a BC of .94 with a 419 grain bullet with the brass
from a 50 BMG.
I hope business is going well and if there is anything I can do
to help, in any way, please let me know.
please note LM-105 BC appears to be more like 0,93 than 0,87. Read more in
Weltrekordgeschoß. The Idea
to use good
.408" Bullets in necked down .50
BMG Cases is not new, but You get rather big guns with very long Barrels. This
may be tolerable for Sport purposes, but for Military use these Things become
too big. Would You like to be Joke, like the Guy in the right Picture? Pretty
useless, eh? For the Reason to build a Rifle You can handle in the Field. You
will want a Rifle that blasts no too big Signature: Fire, Noise, 1 m² moving
Leaves in the Bush You lie under to hide, a Pound Sand moving up into a Dust
cloud from the Ground You lie, when You like to survive Your Shot on the Enemy.
If You have a high BC Bullet of minor Weight an Caliber You get
the more ergonomic Rifle. That's all about in the Field. Pleas note we won the
7th Lapua Sniper
2005 with LM-105, so there is some Proof to the Concept. We intend the next
Stroke in August 2005:
Thank You, We will do our best to win this competition also. There is more
shooting in this competition (approx. 30-50 shots) and the competition will last
for two days in a row. I also think that the wind
conditions will be tougher than in Lohtaja. The longest shots will be at
1000-1100 meters if the competition is similar as in the previous years Now when
I'm more familiar with the gun, I like it more. Even the long barrel doesn't
bother me anymore. The rifle is easy to handle in the field. I could even
do more research with the rifle, like testing how many bullets can be shot
through the barrel before its worn down☺
With regards, Tom Marsti, Donnerstag, 28. Juli 2005 12:43
A .50" BMG can shoot well, see below.
So if You have Monies to play with, be my Guest with the necked down .50" BMG
in a big Gun, as above, but if You seriously want to
achieve Long Range Goals in the Field You might consider smaller bore Bullets
in short Twist Barrels in a not too big Rifle!
Sincerely, Lutz Möller 29th July 2005,
Hi (Entuschuldigung Sie bitte daß ich spreche nur ein bischen
deutsch, ich lerne nun diese Sprache), First, let me tell you that your site has
a lot of useful and interesting information. Congratulations. I am writing a
even a beta, but maybe alpha) can estimate the BC and the mass of a given
tangent ogive bullet, either with or without a boat-tail and it's muzzle
velocity from a given barrel.
I want to switch the program into Haack's minimum drag shape, but I don't know
anything about it. I want to know, how to estimate the volume and the outline
for drawing. I want the formula for calculating the barrel twist too, if you
know it. Can you help me out?
Miguel Torres, Freitag, 13. Juni 2003 09:30.
P.D. The file is my program, I am sorry but it's in spanish.
Dear Mr. Moeller:
I have read with some interest your discussions with Warren Jensen about the
development of bullets and measuring and predicting their performance with
computers. I have had the good fortune to design the computer that CheyTac uses
and markets as the ABC. We have also developed and placed into production a
Civilian version of the ABC. Consequently reading the discussion prompts me to
offer a couple of comments.
Several times at long range I have had the opportunity to
witness the accuracy of the first shot capability of the Intervention Rifle at
extreme range using the ABC as the predictive device. I have also had the
opportunity to meet and discuss with Art Pejsa the ins and outs of his device as
we both live in Minnespolis, MN. After a thorough review of his device and ours,
his method of prediction at long range leaves something to be desired. At the
very best it may give you a solution but the shot will have to be taken to be
The whole basis for the ABC is that once the gun is zeroed in to a specific
range on a specific cartridge, whether the .408 or anything else that is in
military use today, the ABC will absolutely give you a cold bore hit at any
range you choose within the capabilities of the cartridge that you choose. The
device is also as bullet proof as you can manufacture as we ship on industrial
strength platforms that are both portable and very reliable.
I am curious as to how your developments are coming. Have you completed the
development of your new bullets at this time? How about the action. I would
personally be interested in acquiring one for my own use as I am a devotee of
accurate rifles and like custom guns. In any case, please feel free to contact
me at your convenience to discuss these matters. Thanks for your consideration;
as I remain,
Very truly yours, John Paver, 7. September 2003 17:07, Managing Partner, Bradley
Dear Mr. Paver,
just before Midnight I came Home after I shot a 45 kg Wild
Boar after 3 Misses! The last Miss on a Roe Deer, standing in the evening Sun in
10 m from a Hochsitz (more than perfect Condition). The two other ones Misses
before yesterday night stalking the Boar on around 30 m in the half moonlit
Night. After I missed the Roe Deer, I checked the Rifle. The Reason war a
wrongly mounted Scope, that I took off to clean the Rifle.
I come back to you soon on the other Subject. Thanks for your Mail.
Bullet Flight i use Siacci`s, or if you will, Arthur Pejsa`s mathematical
Approach to calculate a Point-Mass in Ballistic Flight. Pejsa has cross
checked his Results with full 6-Freedom-degrees Calculations and practical
experiences as well. He states, the Siacci-Pejsa Model ist accurater than
the old G1, especially at slow Speeds, or long Ranges. This is obvious, when
you look at below Graph from his Work:
Mayewski Model, made for blunt Projectiles, underestimates
modern Spitzerbullets in the slow transsonic Region. Ist was a great
mathematical Wolrk in its Time, in the 19th Century, but todays
Bullets look different. So your Model is even Better, you say. Now let me know,
how you calculate. Also a Photo of Your ABC-Device and an URL would help.
Sincerely, Lutz Möller
I have attached a copy of our brochure that we use to promote
the ABC. We calculate our predictions based on the real world behavior of the
actual projectile flight. What we have found is that Pejsa's system does not
apply with enough accuracy at the longer ranges.
Most predictors are close out to 600 to 900 yards but start
to fall off as the distance lengthens. In discussing this with Art he readily
admits that his method is for conventional or shorter range sniping in the
military environment. What we have accomplished is to take the prediction out
to 2,000 meters and beyond. WE routinely shoot at that distance and longer to
demonstrate both the capability of the .408 CheyTac 419 gr round and the
effectiveness of the ABC.
We have programmed the ABC to predict the behavior of all of
the current rounds in military usage. We also have taken into consideration a
variety of effectors that will change the behavior of various rounds at
various ranges. Consequently we offer what is currently the only device which
would allow you to zero your gun at a known range and then allow you to
receive a solution at any other range that the cartridge is capable of
Obviously we are hampered by the fact that some bullets have
different effective ranges so a two thousand meter solution for a .556 mm
would not make any sense. The ABC does let you know that a two thousand meter
solution is not possible. What we have done effectively is eliminate 'dumb' as
much as possible from the procedure. Please let me know your thoughts on this.
In the case of Siacci and modified versions, it is apparent
that when you try to calculate a solution with one drag factor and/or
published ballistic coefficients, you are running the risk that the
manufacturer is picking a high value or a wrong value to promote his product
over someone elses. The only way, we found to be consistently successful is to
measure each and every round to determine its behavior, meter by meter as it
flies at known velocities.
Will you be at the S.H.O.T. Show in Las Vegas this coming
February? If so I would like to meet you if possible. I am also interested in
your action. Is it for sale yet?
may i point out a unique Feature of the
K11-Action (K for ,,kurz", or short and 11 for the 11th Version). Unlike
common Bolt actions this one bear the Trigger in Front. The Reason was to be
able to use a short and hence light Fire pin. The Benefit is short Delay
from Trigger pull to ignition, hence minimizing the Shooter`s Movements
Influence. Unfortunately the Action first has to work a little bit, before
it may be sold. This one shall find its Way into the following Stock:
K11 Action in a free Recoil shaft as planned
. . . and as realised
The Stock also features some solitary Solutions. First the
Scope is not mounted to the Action, but to the Barrel, as I trust no Thread
as to precisely connect Action and Barrel. Now I eliminated one more
possible Error source. The other Uniqueness is its ,,Bedding”. A Sheet metal
spring holds the Barrel and a Rubber block dampens its Movement. (Do not
look at the front suspension, that shall go). The Benefit is, the Barrel
will not bend , when firing, hence introduce ,,no”, or better less,
Vibrations. The Barrel may freely recoil some 5 Millimeters, before it
reaches a Stop, while the Bullet still accelerates in the Barrel. All the
Shaking starts only, after it left the Muzzle. Surely my long and efficient
Muzzle brake is attached too.
The Barrel will be 90 cm long and sport
progressive Twist down to almost 9°, to stabilize the 6,5cal long Haack
bullet LM-105 (,,LM” either for Lapua Magnum or Lutz Möller and „105“ for
the Cartridge length, as opposed to the regular .338 Lapua Magnum 93,5 mm.
The Rifle will be put to Work, to outshoot a .50BMG Barret over a Kilometer
or so in windy Conditions. I calculated the
BC to be around 0.9 and the obtainable Speed out of a 90 cm Barrel slightly
above 900 m/s. So we will be comparable in Wind drift, but outperform the
.50 BMG in Drop in a Word record proof shot. After that is done, the Gun
will be sold. Before its done, we make no more Parts. I hope to finish the
Rifle by Year 2003 end. Please call back later.
He he, I thought that 20" seemed a little slow for
marginally good flight. I will have to wait for another barrel. I really
like the LM-105 bullet, but my barrel is a 1:10". I have a couple questions
for you. I read a part about trajectories with the German (I'm about half
German by the way) 120 mm smoothbore that had 20 cm groups at 3 km. Is that
possible with a bullet about the size of .30", .338", and 40" caliber? I
would really like my bullets to achieve this performance, if possible. I
read that a guy was turning down the LRBT bullets from .408" to .400" and
was hitting clay pigeons at one mile (1,6 km)
With your "discussion"
you had with Warren Jensen he stated something like, "Balanced Flight
Projectile". Mr. Jensen explains that to do balanced flight, you have to
balance the linear drag with the rotational drag, to keep the very fine nose
(meplat) of the bullet pointed direct into the oncoming air. It results in
very little precession and yaw at extreme range and allows accurate flight
back through transonic. This has been a here-to-fore very hard thing to do,
in small arms. Mathematically you are at a great disadvantage trying to do
balanced flight with a lead core bullet. The rotational mass/surface area
ratio is too high." Is that possible without problems. I always read
"articles written about the .408" having accuracy that is scary, that mainly
comes from the people to designed the thing.
Then I go onto
and everyone is now saying that the guns show very poor accuracy and have
terrible fouling. At the start nearly everyone on that site wanted a rifle
in that caliber, now its down to pretty much no one and there hasn't been a
topic on it for months. Is what they (LRBT) true and there is something that
people are not doing or are they wrong. I want a bullet that will be insane
accurate at super long range (1 mile plus)
I noticed that your
LM-105 has a sharp point also. Is there something you do differently?
I also remember reading something in that article about
solid bullets needing a certain gap in between the bore so fouling isn't soo
bad. Also I hear that "driving bands" will clean out the grooves? I went on
the GS Custom website a while ago and asked them if they could design a
bullet that is similar or superior in performance to Warren's J40 and they
said they could, but the bullet would be about 2" long and would require
like 4 months of waiting. Is there any reason they are made in South Africa?
Sorry to make that so long, but I'm on a quest for knowledge if you will. I
want to know every thing I can.
I'm also interested in making my own
barrels, actions, and cartridges. Do you have any ideas on making an action
cool, really cool, as well as being insanely accurate and function 110%, I
want everything of mine to be the best it can be, if it is possible. That's
my problem, I don't like it when stuff doesn't work, so I think things
should be the best I can be otherwise what's the point of making it. I
planed to use polygonal rifling in my barrels, because of the longer life
and higher velocity. Is there any problems with those? Or would conventional
rifling be better? If the metal will cooperate, my stuff would be made of
something called Liquid Metal, as I watched it on the History Channel for
Again sorry to ask you so many questions.
Hey, I think I have another question for you. There is a
wildcat called the .30 Wolf that was made by one of the guys on
www.snipershide.com who now has his own website. He uses regular bullets of
"conventional" design, but he also uses some thing different. He uses a 253
grain bullet made of powdered tungsten. He says it will whip the crap out of
anything in the wind drift department as
well as expand at nearly any impact velocity. Would a bullet such as this
really be better than the LM-105 or other similar designs?
Hey, sorry I keep bugging you with questions, but I keep
coming up with new ones. What are your thoughts on coating bullets for less
friction in the bore. Is it worth it?
I was told to contact
you again this summer to see how things were comming along with your work
and if you had decided to make a .40 caliber bullet in the same type as the
8,5 mm (.338") . If you haven't made a .408 i would like to purchase some of
your 8,5 mm (.338"). Here is my data from a new 368 grain solid copper BTHP
.408 Bullet form Groove Bullets as well. Just in case you are interested.
With kindest regards, Troy, Dienstag, 25. Mai 2004 08:51
A .40" Cal. Bullet for the .408" Chey Tac never shipped, as the interested
Person never payed. Communication stopped and that was it. However this must
not remain so. Depending what your Goal is several opportunities exist:
A Bullet for the predominant 13 Inch Twist. That will be aerodynamically
just slightly better that the LRB Design, as that is quit good. But because
of a low friction Design and different Material you may upload the Bullet
compared to the LRB high Friction design and keep the Barrel cooler and let
is live longer.
A Bullet for a shorter Twist (you name it) with
greatly enhanced ballistic Performance, especially
I currently have a Hunt 8,5 mm (.338”) Hunt bullet
available. A Sport version less hollow Point can easily be made. Again this
is for 10 Inch Twist and if you go for shorter Twist aerodynamic Performance
can easily be improved.
Such long Cigars have their Price and for new Designs
Minimum order + Shipping, to cover Calculation, Programming and set up. The
very slender Design slows machinery down and great length elongates
Machining path and Time, so they will always be the expensive kind, no
matter who makes them!
So if your application fits in there, please
let me know. Performance data will be given!
Sincerely, Lutz, 25th
Dear Mr. Moeller,
I have been following some of your
posts concerning the
.408. My interest is in long
range target shooting (paper targets and steel plates). This past week I
shot a friends .338 Lapua with 300 gr bullets. This experience only made my
urge for ultra long range shooting stronger. I have a question concerning
line of departure (shooting angle).
.338 Lapua 300gr Sierra
Matchkings at 2800 fps. 1300 feet elevation, 80 degrees temp.
shooting from a hill about 80-100 feet higher than the target. The ranged
distance to the rock was 2450 yards with my Wild Swiss
range finder (I calibrated it on a know distance range of 1000 yards= 915
We shot at various distances before going to 2450 yards. We
shot at 1200, 1600 yards and 1750 yards.
I put on 125 minutes of
angle from our 100 yard zero. In order for us to hit around the target at
2450 yards we had to aim significantly above the original impact location
(target). My calculations using the Ohler ballistics program call for about
125 minutes of angle elevation at 2450 yards. Can you give me insight as to
why we had to aim significantly higher (40 feet above the bullet impact).
Bullet flight time was about 5-5.5 seconds. I was counting once the gun went
off until I saw the puff of smoke.
What diameters and weights of
target bullets do you make. My friend and I shoot 6.5, 30, 338 and are
looking for the next step up to get us some extra distance (.40 or .50 cal).
What are your recommendations.
Do you have any samples of bullets you
could send me. If so my address is listed below.
Best Regards, Corbin
Shell, Freitag, 11. Juni 2004 05:17
Dear Mr. Shell,
the easiest and fastest Way to predict interior and
exterior Ballistics, and for me the fastest Way to answer your Question, is
to buy Hartmut Brömels QuickLoad with
QuickTarget, available in German and English (switchable). I took the Bullet
Data for the Sierra MK from the Sierra supplied Database, then worked a Load
for your .338 Lapua Magnum with the interior Ballistic Program
QuickLoad, then imported the Data in QuickTarget, changed the Atmosphere
to your Inputs, set the final Distance and pushed the Button. Below is the
Screen output for Elevation in MoA:
As you see in the Graph for Your 2246 m, the elevation should
be 132 MoA. You had already set you Rifle with 5 MoA for 91,4 m, so the total
was 130 Moa, just 2 Moa short of the required 132 MoA. Would this Error explain
12,2 m Miss>
||Radius times 2
||Diameter times p (3,1415)
||Circumference by 360
|1' or Minute of Angle MoA
||Degree by 60
No! 2 Moa Error would account only for 1,3 m Error, less than a
Man tall. The Miss was 17 MoA further away. And i could only put in Guesses for
Air density, barometric Pressure and Humidity, as no Date were known. So you
Start Data were, if not perfect, reasonable within Range.
Current English Book Books on Ballistics to read would be
available Dr. Geoffrey Kolbe of
http://www.border-barrels.com/homepage.php (basic) and Prof. Arthur Pejsa
http://www.pejsa.com/. The last one bases on
old (but not mentioned, why?) mathematical Findings from Italian Ballistician
d'Antonio from 1834 and his Predecessor Siacci. Refuse not the old Age. The
Model is superior to the Mayewski-Ingalls Modell, Sierra uses for their Bullet
data and Brömel for his QuickLoad. Everyone knows this, but to stick to the
russian Mayewski Model, who used blunt 1888 Krupp artillerey shell flight data
for his Model, that American Ingalls then translated and moved into this Foot,
Inch and so on Mess, is just a common Habit. Both Peijsa and Brian Fields from
Lex Talus Corporation
http://www.precisionworkbench.com/ offer Software after d'Antonio with
recent Extensions by Arthur Pejsa. I recommend to to use that.
An Explanation, why to do so, less reading the Books, can be
Drag comparision graph on that Page from Pejsas Book, you also find here
under Drag Comparision, tells it all!
Your Bullet flies safely speedy above the trans sonic Range to
about 1200 m. Then the Problem start. To precisely calculate and predict the
Flight well into the subsonic Range, is a difficult Task. I have started to
implement such a Program on my Page under Bullet flight, but that Program
contains Errors below 425 m/s, that i never botherd to fix, as the Bullets then
already fall like Stone out of the Sky. Maybe i should fix that now, to
precisely answer your Question.
I currently only start to expand the Hunt bullet Line Lutz
Möller KJG into Sportbullets. So in mid June 2004 the Bullets available is the
LM-105 for a 9° progressive Twist .338" Barrel. Ready for Production are the 6
mm and the .408". Others are soon to com, including mainly the 6,5 mm and the
unavaoidable .30" as well. I might put them together on another Page soon
(within weeks) and will link from here.
I give no Samples, but actually sell Bullets.
Sincerely,Lutz Möller 11th June 2004
Thanks for your reply. How do I get a hold of some of your bullets here in the
USA. Do you have someone distributing them here in the USA. If so, who? What is
the cost for your .338" and .408" bullets.
Thanks, Corbin, Freitag, 11. Juni 2004 14:47
.408” Up to now I have no Distributor in the U.S.A. To ship them prepaid
is no Problem though. Airfreight is expensive. Sea + Land is cheaper. So far my
Attempts, to supply Bullets to potential Clients in the U.S.A., were of little
Fortune. So let me turn the Ball to You: Which Performance, as in the .408” Case
outlined, would warrant which Price and Volume?
If I could get hold of Contacts to the say 400 existing .408” Chey Tac Rifle
owners, I might have the Possibility to scale Volume up, to bring Prices down.
.338“ You cannot shoot the
LM-105 out of a standard .338” LM Barrel with 254 mm Twist. You need much
I will soon come up with a .338” Performance Bullet for 254 mm Twist. But that
is not ready yet. First 6,5 mm. then .30” then .338”.
Please watch Kupfersportgeschosse for new Sportbullets.
I read the BC-Webpage and wonder, what the progress is on your action.
Have you finished it? Do you
have any additional information about it? The information in your discussion
with LRB mentions it but not in any detail. Thank you. I would be interested in
hearing about your progress.
Mike Collins, Donnerstag, 21. Oktober 2004 21:01
Dear Mr. Collins,
I added under K11 a current Picture of the
finished K11 Rifle. Right now in October 2004 we shoot it to develop suitable
Loads. The soft Suspension devlops not the Load independency, we hoped fore. So
it's just an arkward looking Monster. The real Beauty lies inside, the short
Ignition delay from the shortened Bolt. Meanwhile i know all the Mistakes, that
made this Design painful to make and learned my Lesson. I have Manufacturing
facilities at Hand to be able to design and manufacture anything You would like,
provided you want 20+ Pieces, to get a decent Price. The first one costs the
real Money in CNC-Manufacturing, Followers come at a Fraction.
We still have to prove the K11 in real Live in windy Condition
on long Ranges. A Sako TRG-42 with the same Barrel will be used as a Standard to
judge against. So pleas ask again for the Progress.
Engraving Force Measurements by Mr. Jeff Siewert about the Bullet's Engrave
forces, Pressure and Friction. Mr. Siewert currently has some of my Bullets
under Trial and we all wait for Results, probably not available before December
2004. So please ask again later.
Sincerely, Lutz Möller 21st October 2004
HELLO MR LUTZ MOELLER:
MY NAME IS EDUARDO AND I AM FROM AMERICA , I WAS READING YOUR INFORMATION
REGARDING THE LM-105 BULLET , I CURRENTLY HAVE TWO 338 LAPUA MAGNUM RIFLES BASED
ON THE REMINGTON 700 ACTION , AND I ALWAYS LOOK FOR THE BEST BULLET AVAILABLE
WITH THE HIGHER COEF.
I USE THE SIERRA 300 GR ROUND , BUT UNTIL NOW I DIDNT KNEW THEIR WAS SOMETHING
WITH A HIGHER COEF. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHERE CAN I PURCHASE YOURS BULLETS ?
ALSO I READ THE LOTHAR WALTHER PRODUCES THE 9 DEGREE PROGRESSIVE BARREL?
JUST FOR MY UNDERSTANDING , WHAT IS A PROGRESSIVE BARREL? WHAT IS THE TWIST OF
EDUARDO, 2nd January 2005
long slender Bullets drift in Wind less, than regular ones. On
long Ranges Wind drift limits the Ability to hit a given Target more than
anything else. Therefore the Shooters Ability "to read the Wind" and act
accordingly it the Skill to concentrate on, to improve the Hit-Ratio. While I
shall not teach You that, I can give You a Bullet to Ease Your Pain. In coarse
Terms double BC halves the Wind drift. The Physics behind are slightly
more complicated, but just to remember this, drives many Decisions in the right
Direction. The other Launch- and Flight Parameters are well understood and can
quite well be managed by the Constructor and the Shooter, but the Wind over the
Distance remains unknown. So I must stress the Fact, to minimize Wind drift is
an unsubstitutable Necessity for the Long range Shooter. I, as a Constructor can
only give You a higher BC Bullet, to ease You Pain.
The LM-105 is 6,5 Calibres long, probably
the longest Bullet ever to fly spin stainlized.
Read Beat Kneubuehls english Work "How long can a
spin stabilized Bullet be?"
We call a Twist progressive, when the Turn rate increases from
a shallow to a steep Angle, o from long to short Twist length.
Lothar Walther has Tools, Machinery
and makes progressive twist Barrels for the LM-105. The
Bullet flies well with the final 9° Twist. The maximum Gas pressure pushes the
Bullet just a few Centimeters after it left the Case, so quite early in the
accelerated Travel along the Barrel. To improve Performance and Barrel live, the
LM-105 is a low Friction design that easily slips into the
Lands, minimizing the engraving Force. While conventional jacketed Lead Bullets,
like You Sierra, move only by about 250 bar Pressure, the
LM-105 already accelerates from 150 bar onwards. So You can and must upload
the Charge to yield higher Speeds at the same Pressure. You understand now,
which Incentive drives us. We want the fastest possible Speed, at a given
Pressure Limit. My LM-105 Drive band yields just that, less Pressure for more
Powder for more Speed out of a long Barrel.
The Lost Rive Full shank solid design, just like Barnes Solids
in Hunt rifles, requires about 400 bar to barely move. Engraving forces with
such Solids are that high, almost triple cmpatr4d to my low Friction design. of
f Higher Pressure therefore requires with such Bullets at a given Pressure limit
less Powder, means less Peed, more Fowling, faster Warming, more Fouling and
shorter Barrel live. Pleas read further from the downloadable Power point
I supplied Mr. Siewert some Low friction drive band copper hunt
bullets in 7,6 mm. He hopes to have them measured soon.
The faster the Bullet accelerates and steeper the Twist angle
from shorter Twist is, the higher Torque tears the Drive Bands. As we want the
Drive bands as small as possible to reduce Friction, engraving Force, Barrel
warming and Fouling and increase usable Barrel live, we have a Paradox problem,
that is we want small Drive Bands an steep Twist. Both is contradictory. The
escape the Trap, a progressive Twist comes handy. Only near the Chamber the
Pressure is high. Closer to the Muzzle, the Pressure abated. As the shearing
Torques increases with high Pressure and diminishes with lower Pressure we let
Lothar Walther move the steep Twist
towards the Muzzle and start only with, say, half that Rate near the Chamber.
The Drive bands must be adjusted for the rising Twist Angle and they are.
Perfect sealing against blow by results as a nice side Effect.
So be assured, the LM-105 advances the
Art to shoot a Bullet for long ranges in many Aspects. You should use a 90 cm
long progressive Twist Barrel with 9° final Twist for best Results out of a
.338" LM Cartridge. Lothar Walther
will be happy to supply You such a Barrel and I will as well supply LM-105
You will get Rifle being able to effectively compete against a
.50" BMG or .408" Cheyenne Tactical with the best available Bullets in long
Range Wind drift and Trajectory, but need the 90 cm Barrel. So the thing is for
serious tactical applications too long, but to have Fun on the Range and raise a
couple of Eyebrows, you wil get the best Gear possible, as far as I currently
Lutz Möller , 2nd January 2005
HELLO MR. MOELLER:
I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR FAST REPLY AND EXTREMLY INTERESTING INFORMATION ,
THIS HOBBY OF MINE ALWAYS GETS ME INTO A NEW ADVENTURE.
HOW CAN I ORDER THIS BULLETS AND BARREL?
LM: You may order LM-105 Bullets from me and a suitable Gain
Twist Barrel from Lothar Walther.
CAN I ORDER THE BARREL IN USA OR I HAVE ORDER THE BARREL IN
LM: This please check with
Lothar Walther. If that is
inconvenient for You, I shall help out. Please advise!
WHAT IS THE MINIMUM AMOUNT OF BULLETS TO PURCHASE AND THEIR
LM: 100 Pcs, but let me check on Price. You are in the 1,3 €
Range or above per Piece.
DO YOU HAVE LOADS CHARTS PREPARED WITH POWDER TYPE, AND LENGHT
DIMENSIONS FOR THIS BULLET TO BE SEATED IN THE CASE? WHICH IS THE OPTIMAL LOAD
WITH THIS LENGHT BARREL?
|.338" LM Cartridge with LM-105 Bullet, seated to
105 mm, 90 cm Barrel
|| 910 m/s
|| 914 m/s
|| 919 m/s
SORRY TO BOTHER SO MUCH WITH ALL THIS QUESTIONS , BUT I AM VERY
IMPRESSED WITH THIS BULLET AND WOULD LIKE TO TAKE AS MUCH PERFORMANCE AS
YOURS TRULY, EDUARDO, Sonntag, 2. Januar 2005 20:33
Welcome, Lutz Möller
thanks for Your Mail. See how my .50" Cal Bullets shoot (not
out of a M2, but a regular Bolt action Rifle).
look at the 100 m 12,7 mm MSG Hits. Pleas note on the upper
Picture the Shot low left and on the lower Picture the Shot left are "Cold Bore
Shots". Neglecting the CBS the biggest outer Diameter for each 4 Shots is 18 an
Such looks my 12,7 mm MSG bullet :
12,7 mm MSG for the .50" BMG
Best Regards, L. S. , Tuesday, 21. December 2004 08:10 (LM: I
translated the Message from German into English)
So Roy, You see Accuracy can even be achieved with my .50" BMG
from a plain old Bolt action Rifle. One hit is enough. I wonder, why I would
like an M2 instead, if the first Hit counts. The Bullets are available to
purchase and shoot well from a regular 1:13 Inch Twist. Longer Bullets are
Available for shorter Twists and longer Ranges.
p.s. Just let me add, the Shooter just calculated the 12,7 mm
MSG Loads for the .50" BMG with
QuickLoad, stuffed Primers, Powder and Bullets into the Case and shot the
Groups from the cold Bore. What more can You ask for?