A Ballistic Dicussion with Lost River

A Ballistic Discussion

A Discussion with Lost River's Warren Jensen about Ballistic Coefficients, Drag Curves and Calculations.


LM-105 / 2007

We won 7th Lapua Sniper Competition 2005 with LM-105

Hallo there,

I have been told from Uwe Pfrommer, you offer a .338" Bullet with high BC for the .388 LM. I am interested. Where would I find more information about it? Weight, Length , BC, Price. If you could even send a Picture, that would be even more welcome.

Sincerely, Lutz Möller

Hello Lutz,

Currently we offer three different weights in our J36 .338 hunting bullets. The 200 grain is 1.188" long and has a BC of .528 the price is 42.55 per 20. The 225 grain is 1.312" long and has a BC of .617 the price is 44.10 per 20. The 250 grain is 1.428" long and has a BC of .661 the price is 45.10 per 20. We also offer two standard weights in our J40 match bullets. The 250 grain is 1.79" long and has a BC of .770 the price is 29.25 per 20. The 270 grain is 1.95" long and has a BC of .871 the price is 31.15 per 20. We can also make special weights for you but we require a minimum purchase of 200 bullets. If there is anything else we can help you with please let us know. We also have a website at www.lostriverballistic.com

Thank you!
Lost River Ballistic Technologies Inc.

Hallo There,

thank you for your Answer. I would like to believe your BC-Data, but have my doubt, founded on Robert McCoys work at Airdrag to claim such high BC’s either McCoys Work, my Programming, or your Data must be wrong. We will later (after May 2003) find out in a test shoot. I keep you posted.

Sincerely Lutz

Bob McCoy was a friend of mine. Our data is based upon days of testing shooting in 2001 and 2002 at the US Army's Yuma Proving Grounds shooting through their Weibel Doppler Radar. We have meter by meter data past 4,000 meters. It is very precise. You find out the difference between fact and mathematical models when you do this. Drag data is transient in flight. The main factor that the models do not predict accurately is the drag changes caused by overspin generated precession and yaw. The radar data accounts for this precisely. Please check out what we say. We welcome it. By the way, Bob was not always correct, although he was one of the brightest and most conscientious ballisticians I have ever worked with.

Warren Jensen


thanks for Your Reply. The McDrag Program took I from from JBM and translated it from Basic to Javascript and put it on my Website at Airdrag in English and Luftwiderstand in German. The ADA-098110 report, explaining it, guided me. I understood the Program is a Fit to existing Data on conventional Designs in reasonable Variations. Within these Limits the errors are quantified supersonic to be less than 5 %. I added a Conversion from CW, Calibre and Mass to BC (found in Tables). I possibly may have introduced a big Mistake in the Cw -> BC Conversion, but doubt that. So these leaves us with a proven Concept from the 70ties and your current Data from recent Years, fitted a BC-Concept from ancient Times. I wonder weather your BC Calculations are based on Mayewsky-Ingalls G1, or anything else.

Current Spitzer Bullets, like yours, show a Cw over Speed Behaviour like

The old Data were gathered from blunter Bullets like

Comparable old Drag Data follow

Play around yourself Cw(v). So I really wonder how Your claimed BC’s fit to Robert McCoys past Experience. Evidently they do not fit well. I use a Design called a Haack minimum Drag Bullet, not as radical as seen in the Pictures there, but with a better Nose, yielding some 10% less Wave Drag in supersonic Flight than a secant ogive Nose. While I believe your slender Bullets are good, I also believe my design to be superior. They will be made in South Africa by GS Gustom. If You wish, you may deliberately copy and use above Javascript Programs on Your site. If you would like McCoys Report I would be able to scan it, convert ist to PDF, send it to you, provided you would publish it on your Website, as it’s quite some Work an quite some Space.

Sincerely, Lutz


The BC values we list are for the average shooter or reloader who has a basic understanding and a computer program that computes G1 values.

Let me emphasize. A BC represents the bullet's trajectory at a fixed moment in time. There are no mathematical curves that I am familiar with that accurately calculate a bullet's trajectory. This is because the relationship between true forward drag and true rotational drag and the ensuing drag changes caused by these forces is not accounted for. At ranges up to 80% of a projectiles supersonic range a fixed BC can be close enough for the average shooter At longer ranges and especially those through transonic to subsonic these forces have to be figured. The radar data is extremely precise. We use it in the Advanced Ballistic Computer and software that we are marketing. It provides very accurate trajectory predictions especially at the very long ranges.

If you are telling me that your formulas are better then more power to you. I will stick with the radar data.

Warren Jensen

Dear Warren,

thanks for your Reply.


The BC values we list are for the average shooter/reloader who has a basic understanding and a computer program that computes G1 values.

Ok. You go with G1. In that Case your slender Bullets would have a good fit at higher at higher Speeds, but introduce errors in the lower region.

Let me emphasize. A BC represents the bullet's trajectory at a fixed moment in time. There are no mathematical curves that I am familiar with that accurately calculate a bullet's trajectory.

Well, exactly that tried d’Antinio, an italian Ballistitian already 1834. His Formula were revitilazed in the 80ties by Arthur Peijsa, who enhanced them a bit and proofed the Fit to Artillery data up to 10 km for flat shooting Trajectories. The modern Way would be, to use a 6 DOF-Program. But the needed aerodynamic Data and Program cost limit its use to the Military or rather wealthy Individuals, who can easily spend a few 10K $.

This is because the relationship between true forward drag and true rotational drag and the ensuing drag changes caused by these forces is not accounted for.

Well, d’Antionio, Peijsa and Mayewski-Ingalls are just Point-Mass Programs. 6DOF would take that into Account. Harrold R Vaughn in your Country (see a Reference to his Book below. I consider it mandatory reading for any dedicated Shooter) has Access to such Programs and knows to use them, so you may contact him on the Subject.

At ranges up to 80% of a projectiles supersonic range a fixed BC can be close enough for the average shooter.

Well, a fixed BC at one Speed is fine. The G1–Curve actually does the Fit to different Speeds. All I say is, the G1-Curve fits no slender Bullets. There is the Error. Either d’Antonio, Peijsa or a different Drag-Curve would remove the Error.

At longer ranges and especially those through transonic to subsonic these forces have to be figured.

Around the Transsonic Range Calculation is extremely difficult, i agree.

The radar data is extremely precise. We use it in the Advanced Ballistic Computer and software that we are marketing. It provides very accurate trajectory predictions especially at the very long ranges.

I should have a Look at them.

If you are telling me that your formulas are better, then more power to you.

How nice, thanks!

I will stick with the radar data.

If you would be so kind, to send me set of Data for a certain Bullet like the .338 J40 Bullets. I would like to feed my Software with it and try to see how my Predictions fit and tell you the Results. We are also in the Process to move our Software to the Palm OS, so Shooters could take the Calculations to the Range, without a Laptop.

Maybe you would be interested to market that in the U.S.A. so we would mutually benefit.

Sincerely, Lutz Möller


Let me explain this another way. I am familiar with the math and the methodologies. I have been using 6DOF for years. I am familiar with the literature. The problem is that these are not accurate enough. Yes, that is correct. When you actually take the formulas and correct for the environments and shoot the data it is not accurate enough. The radar data is accurate. It is dead on. You use this data, correct for the environmentals, and you can hit the target with the first shot, even at extremely long ranges.

This data cost us a considerable amount of money to collect. We intend to use it in our software and computers and market it. It would be foolish for me to give it away.

This is not an intellectual exercise for me. This is my life. I have spent many years pursuing the best methods for small arms trajectory prediction.

Recall that I entered this discussion because you sent a note that basically said our numbers are wrong, that we were not considering the correct physics and math, and that we should become familiar with Bob McCoy's work if we intend to do this correctly. None of those statements were correct and they assumed many things about us that also were not correct. What would be your reaction if someone stated that about your work without more than a superficial understanding of what you were doing?

Warren Jensen


maybe the Time is ripe for a Statement from my Side to express my Surprise and acknowledge, I underestimated your Work, without previously familiarizing with it. Sorry for that. Since so much Ballony is talked in Ballistics from many People, I falsely generalized without knowing you.


Let me explain this another way. I am familiar with the math and the methodologies. I have been using 6DOF for years. I am familiar with the literature. The problem is that these are not accurate enough. Yes, that is correct. When you actually take the formulas and correct for the environments and shoot the data it is not accurate enough. The radar data is accurate. It is dead on. You use this data, correct for the environmentals, and you can hit the target with the first shot, even at extremely long ranges.

I discussed the Matter with the Rheinmetall Ballistician Dr. Wollman. He said Point mass d’Antonio is not good enough for high Precision. The German Tank gunners use 6DOF calculated, corrected and then tabulated Data in ROM to get accurate Results in Time. To reckon on the Fly would be too slow. With the 120 mm Smoothbore they hit a 20x20 cm Target in 3 km. That’s some Accuracy, I believe.

This data cost us a considerable amount of money to collect. We intend to use it in our software and computers and market it. It would be foolish for me to give it away. This is not an intellectual exercise for me. This is my life. I have spent many years pursuing the best methods for small arms trajectory prediction.


Recall that I entered this discussion because you sent a note that basically said our numbers are wrong,

Waren not quite that. I just stated, your Numbers fit not the McCoy Programm output, that I complemented to state BC , not just Cw. Neither I stated, where the Fault could be, just that there is one (Your Side, My Side, McCoy).

that we were not considering the correct physics and math,

If you still use G1 for your slender Bullets, I hold that up. You will notice Drag over Speed depends quite a bit on Shape. Peijsa’s Figure 4 shows that quite clearly.

and that we should become familiar with Bob McCoy's work if we intend to do this correctly. None of those statements were correct and they assumed many things about us that also were not correct. What would be your reaction if someone stated that about your work without more than a superficial understanding of what you were doing?

If I thought, that would be the Case my Feelings would be less than warm, much less. But let’s clear that up. I just wonder how you get those claimed high BC’s and how you can predict Long Range Behaviour with G1. With Long Range, I mean Bullets entering the transonic Zone (or even slower). Here may lie the reason of the Misfit, I see. Now, that you decided to keep those Trajectory data secret, I cannot proof or disproof, whether your stated truly high BC’s fit with my understanding of BC and trajectory.

I follow d’Antonio and Arthus Peijsa’s Work in this field. It would have been an intellectual Exercise, to work on those Range – Speed – Pairs. I can also see no Way, how such shared Knowledge could hurt your (even if intended, which is not so) Interests. What bad could I do with Data for one or two Bullets? Anyhow, they are yours and that’s it.

As Your, from Radar Date derived, BC’s are so much different, than my McCoy calculated ones, I can only accept the Fact and later, when my Bullets are ready measure them. I’ll keep you posted.

Sincerely, Lutz


As to why I post G1 BCs over giving the actual drag data. The general customer that we sell to has no capacity to interpret actual drag data. That fact is most experienced ballisticians intrepret drag data incorrectly. We give the general customer a tool that can be used with the popularly available computer programs. When used this way it is within the range of errors that the computer programs introduce. Most of them do not accurately adjust for air pressure ( they ask for elevation or altitude), they do not accurate adjust for temperature, they do not accurately adjust for ammo temperature, they do not have the user accurately input true muzzle velocity, and many others. If the program does not do these things it is meaningless to give true drag data.

The truth is it is a tool meant for a particular customer. This customer comprises 98% of the civilian market.

I do have the correct data that is very accurate, but trying to teach a customer how to use it in anything but a setup software program for the particular bullet and cartridge they are shooting is a mistake. We are marketing the latter to sophisticated long range military shooters now. We will be coming out with this software and hardware for the civilian market very soon.

Right now I am not interested in advancing the art of small arms ballistic trajectory calculating. I passed a number of years ago. I am interested in giving the shooter tools that will allow him to do it for himself. Do you think the average shooter can manipulate a 6 DOF formula for his 7mm? I don't. The computers and software will give them the tools they can use.

By the way, 6 DOF formulas would not be accurate enough for the tank gunners if their targets where at such a distance that the projectiles where approaching transonic. Trust me on this. With a MV of 4850 fps and the tremendous sectional density of the dart there is not much elevation required. Also, because the dart is fin stabilized the overspin yaw drag never significantly materializes.


Dear Warren,

thank you for your Time. I found our Discussion worthwhile to remember, so I published it. If you would like to add anything, (Pictures) be my Guest. If you object the Publication, I shall erase it. I am rather curious, to see Your Bullets perform in Comparison.

Sincerely, Lutz

Mr. Moeller

I just read your discussion with Warren from Lost River bullets. I tried some of their “great” bullets with no luck. They are magical in that I suspect that one load and one load only will net you the results they achieved but at a price of a small business loan for the price of their bullets.

I had better luck with Sierra and Berger bullets which showed excellent ballistic performance with a few different powders, and seating depths. For that matter the Berger bullets weren’t tolerant of seating depth and gave same performance either touching the lands, fitted into the lands or making a jump to the lands. Lost River bullets never showed signs of any better performance with 7 different powders, and three different seating depths.

I think the mathematical theory is correct and in a computer simulation will result with the type of claims published on their website but in reality they simply do not work as advertised.

I would like to try your 7 mm bullets. I have a Lilja 34 in 1:9 twist 4 groove barrel chambered in a 7 mm Tomahawk, this case is a 7 mm RUM blown out a tad bit and shoulder angle changed. The result is 115.5 grains of water capacity to the top of the neck.

Please let me know the prices for these bullets. I have designed another wildcat cartridge that will utilize a 40 in barrel and a case capacity of roughly 160~165 grains of water. The case has been formed and necked down for the 375, 338 and 308 diameter bullets. I will be very interested once I get the 338 barrel in to try your bullets.

Thank you, Dave Boday, Sonntag, 17. Juli 2005 08:38

Dear Mr. Boday,

thank You for Your Mail. I cannot understand how Lost river Ballistics stays in Business, when so many Folks show up to tell, the LRB Bullets "in reality simply do not work as advertised." I have not sold a lot to America, where I suppose You com from, but read this (I supply the EMail separately, but put them never on the Web, to avoid Spam!)>:

Hi Lutz,

I thought I would let you know initial results using your bullets in my 9.3 x 62. With 64 grains of Reloader 19, I get 2950 fps and no pressure signs. The powder charge comes up the case neck half way, so I don't think I could fit much more in the case. Accuracy was 3 shots at 100 yards into a 3/8" by 1/2" (inch) group, measured center to center, 2 of the shots touching. This is just amazine accuracy, since my rifle cannot be considered match grade in any sense, and the scope was a 1.5-6 x only.

The alloy has me curious. Although it looks like copper, the specific gravity is too low for pure copper, so I am wondering if it is an aluminium and copper alloy. Don't tell me any trade secrets, but if you can give me any info about the alloy which is not confidential, that may help to satisfy my curiosity.

Thanks again! I will let you know the results that I get on game.

Dan McCarthy, Mittwoch, 6. Juli 2005 18:04

Dear Dan,

thank You for Your Mail.

I am glad, You get along well with the KJG an achieve You Goals. Please keep me updated with Results on Game. Pictures and Stories are always welcome

Quite a few were astonished to get such good Results with the 9,3 mm. I assume the Cause not just in the Bullet well made Precision itself, but also to the Fact, they are lighter than most other 9,3 mm Bullets and therefore shoot more comfortable thereby helping the Shooter, to keep the Rifle on Target. I just returned from Afrika 2005 and have a few more EMails to read and answer.

The KJG - Alloy is 99% Copper and just 1% different, to allow for better machining. So the Density should almost be that of Copper. If I misinformed the Audience somewhere, I should quickly correct the Type error.

Sincerely Lutz, 16th July 2005

Dear Lutz,

I saw your email about the Warren Jensen discussion. I have tried Mr. Jensen's rather costly Lost River bullets in a .375" H & H. They take up so much powder capacity that velocity is impaired, which is not a good thing for a long range bullet. And I also experienced signs of unusually high pressure with loads that should be considered mild for other rifles. Therefore I discontinued use of the Lost River bullets before working up a load.

Dan, McCarthy Dienstag, 19. Juli 2005 07:11

Well Dan,

that's one Problem with Solids, that are not designed for low Friction. read below, a third Party found for my Drive low Friction Band Bullet compared with a standard FMJ.


Lutz, 19th July 2005

Friction and Engraving Force

For the American Defense Industry Association



Arrow Tech Associates, Inc.
- Jeff Siewert -
1233 Shelburne Rd., Suite D-8
S. Burlington, Vt. 05403
Phone +1 - 802-865-3460 x19 http://www.prodas.com/,

well known from Small Caliber Engraving Force Measurements Presentation 2004, in a M240

compare two 7,6 mm Bullets, namely a conventional 7,6 mm 9,5 g M80 Ful Metal Jacket Bullet und the 2004 7,6 mm Lutz Möller Geschoß. Die Press test measured Force over Length. Die Result of 40 averaged Press measurements follow.



M80 zu KJG - Comaparision


The conventional M80 FMJ requires 38% more Peak force then the Lutz Möller KJG, to press the Bullets via Throat into the Barrel.

Sigma s

s shows the standardised Deviation singular Measurements from the respective Average. Its therefore mostly a Quality indicator. That Lutz Möller KJG perform here incredibly better, can be linked to the Cause, that two incomparable Bullets were compared. The M80, a cheap Mass product in Volume as Machine gun fodder against a precision KJG for the single Shot on precious Game.


The Force measurements clearly show the favorable low friction Lutz Möller KJG Design

Lutz Möller 19th July 2005,

.408 Chey Tac

Hello Mr. Möller,

I read the discussion you had with Lost River.

The ballistic coefficient (BC) of a bullet for standard conditions is normally available from the bullet manufacturer. It should be noted that not all bullet manufacturers necessarily compute BC’s using the standard military G1 ballistic table. This is sometimes done to make their bullets appear superior to other brands of bullets. There are also different atmospheric conditions applied by bullet manufacturers, which results in slight BC changes.

The ARMY STANDARD METRO atmosphere is to my knowledge used by Sierra Bullets and Hornady Bullets. The somewhat denser ICAO STANDARD ATMOSPHERE is to my knowledge used by Speer Bullets and Nosler Bullets. Lost River tend to use yet another atmosphere at sea level that has a temperature of 50o F (10o C), a barometric pressure of 29.53 inches of mercury (1000 hPa), and a relative humidity of 70%. The ammo temperature is 70o F (21,1o C). Assuming this is correct working with BC’s without knowing how they were established is somewhat tricky.

On your 408 Chey-Tac web link Extreme Firearms makes a claim about this cartridge, which seems to give it magic performance. Compute the Chey-Tac 419-grain bullet performance in a Pesja driven calculator at Lost Rivers claimed V0 of ~915 m/s and you will find out it predicts ~340 m/s at ~2100 m. Extreme Firearms probably mixed up the transonic zone with the speed of sound.

Lost River state the Chey-Tac is the first bullet/rifle system that utilizes, what they call the balanced flight projectile. Mr. Jensen explains that to do balanced flight you have to balance the linear drag with the rotational drag to keep the very fine nose (meplat) of the bullet pointed direct into the oncoming air. It results in very little precession and yaw at extreme range and allows accurate flight back through transonic. This has been a here-to-fore very hard thing to do, in small arms. Mathematically you are at a great disadvantage trying to do balanced flight with a lead core bullet. The rotational mass/surface area ratio is too high.

Not only EMS Arms but also other high-end manufacturers like Prairie Gun Works with its Timberwolf Super Magnum Tactical are offering complete rifles ($ 4000+) and actions ($ 1800+) for the 408 Chey-Tac. This Canadian 3-lug bolt-action can handle 4,5” (114 mm) long cartridges and was specifically designed for the 338 Lapua Magnum and the 408 Chey-Tac.

The ARMY STANDARD METRO atmosphere was established at the U.S. Army Aberdeen Proving Ground and was used for many years by the U.S. Army as the atmosphere for which all standard firing tables were computed. Manufacturers of commercial ammunition also adopted this standard atmosphere, and it is still in use by major manufacturers of commercial ammunition and bullets. In the Army Standard Metro, the atmosphere at sea level has a temperature of 59o F (15o C), a barometric pressure of about 29.5275 inches of mercury (999,92 hPa), and a relative humidity of 78%. The atmospheric density under these conditions is about 0,0751 pounds per cubic foot (1,203 kg/m3).

The ICAO STANDARD ATMOSPHERE was defined by the International Civil Aviation Organization and it was adopted in the late 1950's as the standard atmosphere for all of the U.S. armed forces. In the ICAO standard atmosphere, the atmosphere at sea level has a temperature of 59o F (15o C), a barometric pressure of about 29.921 inches of mercury (1013,25 hPa), and a relative humidity of 0%. The atmospheric density under these conditions is about 0,0765 pounds per cubic foot (1,225 kg/m3).

The 408 Chey-Tac is based on the old low pressure (2.400 bar) cartridge 505 Magnum Gibbs.


Case Type

Bullet ø

Case Length

Rim ø

Neck ø

Shoulder ø

Base ø

Total Length


Year Introduced

505 Gibbs

Rimless, bottlenecked










338 Lapua

Rimless, bottlenecked










The .408" Chey-Tac is thicker in the web and has been redesigned and metallurgical strengthened to handle high pressures safely! The case capacity is ~10,71 cm3. Powder weights are about 8,10 - 8,94 grams. With the 419-grain bullet it has according to Lost River a V0 of ~915 m/s. They claim to get 10 reloads out of the case under ~4.830 bar operating pressure. There is also a 305-grain 0,611 BC bullet for the Chey-Tac developed which reaches a claimed Vo of ~1067 m/s. The barrel of the $ 7000+ EDM Arms .408" Chey-Tac Intervention is 29,5", 1:13 RH twist, eight 0,4080" grooves, 0,4010" bore 0,050" land width, square cut, no taper. Mr. Jensen expects the Chey-Tac will become a popular case among wildcatters and will be necked down to 338-calibre.

H.C.F. de Nie, Samstag, 1. Februar 2003 10:00

Ballistic Flight Calculator

blown up .408" Chey Tac by Pacif Reamers Dave Kiff

.408 Chey Tac Bullet Flight

V0: 915 m/s, BC: 0.94, ß: 2606, Altitude: 0 m , Wind: 4 m/s, Point blank: 10 cm

Scope 4.5 cm high mounted. Calculate from 0 m each 200 m to 2500 m





Zero Adj. Click

zero Adj. Click


° hr

























































































10 cm Point Blank Range = 311 m
near Zero = 29 m, Midrange = 157 m, far Zero = 269 m
Elevation for 268.9 m Zero = 20.0 Clicks
Windage for 268.9 m Zero = 3.5 Clicks

Bullet flight calculator!

Lostriver claims

Caliber/Cartridge J40

Bullet Weight


Min. Twist Required Price


Sectional Density


# .408 (Not Loaded) 305 gr. 19,76 g .612 1:13" 330 mm $32.50 per 20 5,47° 23,73 g/cm²
.408 (Not Loaded) 419 gr. 27,15 g .940 1:13" 330 mm $32.50 per 20 5,47° 32,65 g/cm²
Lutz Möller LM-105 296 gr. 19,20 g .869 1:7" 178 mm 150 € per 100 8,76° 33,10 g/cm² 55,8 mm


Extreme Firearm Claim

The .408 Chey-Tac cartridges fires a novel, computer designed 419 gr solid proprietary copper nickel alloy projectile that provides sub MOA accuracy to the limits of existing military riflescopes; i.e. 2270 meters (2500 yards).

The .408 Chey-Tac projectiles are cut with twin-spindle CNC lathes with a final size process through pressure dies to bring the OD variations to less than 1/50 millionth. These projectiles and match quality cartridge cases will be available through Lost River Ballistic Technologies, Arco ID.

Unlike other military cartridge projectiles, the .408 Chey-Tac projectile remains on its original trajectory course during transonic and subsonic phases of flight.

Ballistic coefficient of .408 Chey-Tac projectile averages 0.945 to 2000 meters (2200 yards) and drops to the low 0.900s to 2800 meters (3100 yards).

The .408 Chey-Tac projectile enters the transonic zone at 2100 meters (2300 yards).

The .408 Chey-Tac projectile was tracked to 3660 meters (4000 yards) by Doppler Radar when the gun was fired at a 7-degree slant angle.


but Lost River delivers

Aerodynamic Calculations for laminar Bow and turbulent Shaft give 0,877 BC, but all laminar flow would yield BC 0,964. The truth with Projectiles under 20 mm Diameter lies somewhere in the Middle, near 0,92. So the LRB-claimed BC 0,945 BC is reasonable.

The .408" Chey Tac asks for .408" Grove and 0,400" Land Calibre, hence the Name. To fire a sub-groove-calibre Bullet, unless pushed by sealing and driving a Sabot, means the Bullet will not seal the Barrel against the Gas pressure of several thousand bar. Hence fast high pressured Gases will blast by the Bullet surface, evaporate the Copper-Nickel-Alloy. The Metal gases then condense on the Barrel walls, both the Groves and the Lands. While such sub-grove-calibre-design is common with solids, the fowling is still enormous. The Reason why Solids-manufactures build such too small Bullets is to reduce the Bullets otherwise prohibitively high Engrave forces vie the Lead and Throat into the grove calibred Rifle. So LRB, like other Solid Manufacturers, solves a Problem with another Problem.

The right Way would be a low friction Design with minimum width Drive Bands, instead of a Solid. LRB claims, they calibrate the turned Bullets to very tight Tolerances after turning. That is all in vain, when the Target dimensions are off a meaningful = sealing Specification anyway.

Good CNC-Manufacturers can turn repetitively and economically thin Drive Bands to a Specification that both seals and reduces Friction.

Most Solids require about 400 – 450 bar initial Pressure to move the bullet into the Throat. A Low-friction-minimum-Width-Drive-Band-Design allows meagre 100 – 150 bar to allow the Bullet to engrave and move, enlarging the Powder room in the Cartridge after the Bullet. Ron Weatherby pioneered that Concept in America with his rather long cylindrical Leads before the conical Throat some 50 Years ago. The German Magnum 8x68S Cartridge had the Long-Throat-Concept for the same Reason already 1939.

A Low-friction-minimum-Width-Drive-Band-Design like the LM-105 or Lutz Möller Geschoß, see intellectual Property) allows with any Cartridge to upload the Bullet with faster Powder to increase the Muzzle speed at a given Pressure level. Muzzle Speed will with the same Bullet weight exceed those of jacketed Lead Bullets (engraving Pressure usually around 250 bar) an by far exceed that of Solids, even of the now common sub calibre Designs.

What an undersized Bullet means for Accuracy, must not be discussed, as that should be known widely.

Now let's see what what Pressure can do. It should push the Bullet up the Barrel, you might think. Well, first the Lands must engrave into the Bullet. While no own Data from LRB J40 Bullet were taken, comparative Solids needs rather high 400 bar initial Pressure to move the Bullet into the Rifles. The low friction LM Lutz Möller Geschoß just ask for 100 bar to accelerate swiftly Throat. Therefore with the Low-Friction-Design more Powder may be stuffed into the Case. Note: this Example goes for a blown up .408” Chy Tac Case with Reamers by Dave Kiff from Pacific Reamers, yealding 172 grain Water Case Capacity, well above the ,,standard” Size. But what is standard with a Wildcat anyway?

.408" Chey Tac

11,17 ml Case Capacity, 914 mm Barrel,

LRB J40 27,15 g Bullet with 400 bar initial Pressure

Powder Mass
Pressure [bar] V0
max Muzzle
Norma MRP 8,5 94,4 4.759 548 920
Hogdon H1000 9,0 99,2 4.699 537 916
Ramshot Big Boy 9,1 96,7 4.722 557 924
Vihtavuori N170 9,25 100,6 4.829 567 912

LM low Friction 27,15 g Bullet with 100 bar initial Pressure

Powder Mass
Pressure [bar] V0
max Muzzle
Norma MRP 8,84 98,2 4.790 570 934
Hogdon H1000 9,33 102,8 4.775 554 931
IMR7828 8,80 100,9 4.730 572 935
Ramshot Big Boy 9,45 100,5 4.779 577 940
Vihtavuori N170 9,50 103,3 4.777 581 922
PC Clermont PCL 517 9,46 100,6 4.786 576 940

The LRB J40 Bullet is aerodynamically sound, near optimal, but already on the Stability limits with the common 330 mm or 5,63° Twist. For Stabilities Sake the Option to elongate the Bullets cannot be exercised. The Haack minimum Drag Nose will improve the BC in the second Digit only. Also less than 3% Speed can be gained. A Hope would be to use Norma MRP-2, to improve Speed, but unfortunately currently no Data exist.

The overall Improvement is less than 5%. Still while shooting Matches, the less Barrel warms less, the Drive bands clean Powder residue, the Bullet fouls less, so you shoot longer accurately.

To design a further improved Bullet would require shorter Twist. Then the BC would gain and hence Wind drift could be noticeably reduced.

Lutz Möller

Dear Mr. de Nie,

pleas read also .408" Chey Tac (added 2005).

JohnTaylor's .408 Chey Tac in the German Horneber Cases, derived form the ancient .505 Magnum Gibbs is a fine Cartridge in its own Right, i agree. Please supply me with Bullet Lenghts for both 408 Bullets, so I can develeop some loads. Above you find the .408 Chey Tac Bullet Flight. While that Performance surely qualifies for a Long Range Sniper Rifle, the Guns are a bit heavy to carry in Afghanistan Mountains upwards. Also the Bullets not yet fully utilize the Cartridges Potential, as the Twists are rather long, or with 5,74° not really steep.

Therefore I delveloped the LM-105 Bullet for the .338" Lapua Magnum, exceeding the 93,5 mm CIP Length up to 105 mm, hence the name. Shot from a 8,75° a Gain twist Barrel to launch the longest possible Twist stabilized Bullet, exploiting the Case potential fully. With a slightly lower BC, I shall get into the same Performance region, but at much lesser Weight, Recoil, Flash and Noise. While beeing easier to shoot, I belive the overall Accuracy will outshine the bigger Hammers, like the .408 Chey Tac and the .50 BMG.

You are invited to show your Performance in a Long Range Competition 1 – 2 km in windy Condition, when the Rifle is ready, probably Summer 2003 in Klietz, in Germany.

Lutz Möller


I am interested in this bullet, LM - 105. Is there a way i can order this .338" ammo?

Troy, Samstag, 8. März 2003 03:01


LM-105 are available. My Project is not as far, that we can shoot, as the Action is not ready yet. But beware! With 6,5 calibre length and it’s Haack Design you will need about 9° Twist, or 20 Calibres or in this Case 175 mm or 7 Inch to stabilize it. To not strip the Drivebands you need a specially designed Barrel with progressive Twist, that Lothar Walther GmbH manufactures, so you would need to ask there for the Barrel.

You may be interested to market the Action, once it’s ready in the U.S.A.

K11 Schnitte

It’s main benefits are twofold

No Movement, from balanced ( m ass wise) Design to limit asymmetric shot induced Movements

Extremely quick Ignition, by short, lightweight Fire pin with short stiff Spring and short (3,8 mm) Way

The Window opens 100 mm length. Modifications are possible.

So I am just the Spiritus Rector and Designer of this Project. The Business is done by the respective Sponsors themselves. Please Contact Mr. Gerard Schultz for the Bullets and Dr. Frank Walther for the Barrel. I shall talk about the Action, when it soon shall be ready .

Sincerely, Lutz Möller

Dear Lutz,

I have written you previously. Please keep me informed on progress for your LM-105 which I hope to be able to try in my .408 Cheytac wildcat. Do you have any made in any size, that you could send one for me to study? Hope you will get there soon.

Randy Cullinan, Montag, 24. November 2003 21:23

Randy, we are in the Process to make the Shaft for our Rifle. Please ask again later. Sincerely Lutz

Lutz, Does this mean you don't have a LM-105 sample , you can send , in any size? Randy.


i have LLM-105 Samples in .338" Calibre for the .338 Lapua Magnum. We send no Samples. We sell prepaid Product.

The LM-105 for the 338 LM is made to shoot a Contest with a special Rifle with a long Gain Twist Barrel with final 9 Degrees Twist. Action and Barrel are ready. The Shaft is currently beeing made. You would only be able to shoot the LM-105 out of such special Barrel, because it is 6,5 Calibres long. So this Endeavour is not for commercial Purpose but for Propaganda. It will proof something, namely you can outshoot a .50BMG on long Ranges (1 km or so) in Wind. To show that in Public is the Purpose. Theoretically it is possible, but practical Proof is of even greater Value.

The LM-105 is a Bullet for a standard .338" Lapua Magnum, but 105 mm long, hence the Name. Compare it below to the .50" BMG.

LM 105

Our LM-105 Bullets BC is almost equal to the measured BC of 0,95 of the .510" C al . Hornady-A-Max left. The .338 LM shoots the LM-105 faster, the Rifle will be lighter and handier. Recoil will be much less and Wind drift about equal.

The Result shall open the Eyes of those, who believe you must have a .50 Cal Rifle for long Range Sniper Purposes. I object. Firepower is enough available. Precision is enough available. But all that is to heavy and bulky. So I first proof, the Bullet can do it. Next i design a Rifle for Field purpose , much different than the "World record rifle". Now, coming back to your Email. I understand you would like Bullets for your .408" CheyTac Rifle. As i cannot know the Dimension of Your .408 CheyTac, i ask you for Drawings. State the Twist length too. Then i could design a Bullet and predict its Performance. You may then order minimum 500 Bullets. If you would like Copperbullets for Hunting Purposes, please have a look at Lutz Möller Geschosse. We call those Bullets Lutz Möller Geschosse, abbreviated KJG, means Copper Hunt Bullet.

LM 8,5 mm Kupferjadgeschoß

Picture: .338 Lapua Magnum Hunt Bullet, the "Airship"

Currently 6,5 mm, 7 mm and 8 mmS Bullets are available. More shall come. See some 6,5 mm KJG Photos. LM 2005 Most Calibres are there in "Lutz Möller KJG"

If Your Question is not sufficiently answered, please call again.

Sincerely, Lutz Möller

Hello Mr. Möller,

The data about the (experimental) .408" Chey Tac projectiles came from Tactical Shooter Magazine. The pictures are small and also came from this magazine. I think this magazine no longer exists.

I cannot give a definite answer to your question if the mentioned 9 ogive is in inches or calibres. I have never heard that Americans use inches to describe ogives. Most probable is that a 9-calibre tangent ogive is meant. I got this explanation about ogives from the website of bullet manufacturer Northwest Custom Projectile http://www.customprojectile.com Most rifle bullets use a tangent ogive, which is designated in S-numbers (short for Spitzer, or pointed, in German). The S-number is just the radius of the arc that forms the nose. A spitzer bullet typically uses from 4 to 6 calibres of radius length. When we specify a S6 ogive, it means a curve drawn with a compass set six calibres apart, starting tangent (right at) the shank and crossing the centreline of the bullet. The smallest possible S number is 1/2 (0.5) because that is exactly half the calibre, and draws a perfectly round nose.

The problem with wildcats is one essentially never knows who is doing what and how performance and other characteristics are being improved or changed. The professional approach to obtain high performance cartridges is to utilize a large volume case as a parental case for a usually smaller calibre than the original design and to make it suitable for much higher pressures. This method was used to create cartridges like the .300 and .338 Lapua Magnum from the .416 Rigby and the .408 Chey Tac from the .505 Gibbs. The do it yourself approach to "improve" the performance of cartridges is to blow out the original case in an "improved" chamber. This usually sharpens the shoulders of the case and decreases the body taper so that the powder capacity increases. This increase and hence the V0 gain are limited. An increased case volume .338 Lapua Magnum variant I have heard of is the .338 Yogi. I do not know much about the .338 Yogi, but if you want to find out more about it look at the website of Tooley Custom Rifles http://www.tooleyrifles.com in the Reamer List - Proprietary Calibres section. You probably have to pay a license fee to use the .338 Yogi chambering. If the .300 and .338 Yogi resemble the limit you can reach by blowing out the case of your choice I do not know. I would not be surprised if there were other “improved” variants in existence based on this case. To increase your case capacity to bullet weight ratio maybe scaling down your bullet somewhat (8 mm / .30-calibre?), whilst keeping the Ballistic Coefficient and Sectional Density at the same level, is also an option to explore to get more V0. If you want to blow out and/or neck down the Lapua cartridge case you have to decide for yourself.

I hope you found this helpful for your LM-105 project.

H.C.F. de Nie

.50" necked down

> Gesendet: Freitag, 29. Juli 2005 05:07
Cc: Stan Stennett
Betreff: 50 bmg Wild cat with a Chey Tac bullet - 419 gr the center bullet in the chart below.


When you get time please give this initial concept some thought?

We have not talked yet this year. I have been working with photography and trying to find my regular trade in manufacturing through managing multiple manufacturing plants. A wildcat 50 BMG necked down to a .408 Chey Tac with a long barrel to have an very fast bullet with a good B/C that has plenty room for lots of the right type of powder.

The barrel would be a long barrel for competition lapped per the tapes taking every step possible to enhance accuracy. I am not set on a stock but I keep thinking about the Colonel Mustard style Benchrest stock, but with a burl wood looking stock. I do think it will do good at Benchrest shooting, particularly with a muzzle brake, so it would not take my arm off on.

Lostriver claims

Caliber/Cartridge J40

Bullet Weight BC Min. Twist Required Price Twist Sectional Density Length
# .408 (Not Loaded) 305 gr. 19,76 g 0.61 1:13" 330 mm $32.50 per 20 5,47° 23,73 g/cm²
# .408 (Not Loaded) 419 gr. 27,15 g 0.94 1:13" 330 mm $32.50 per 20 5,47° 32,65 g/cm²
Lutz Möller LM-105 296 gr. 19,20 g 0.87 1:7" 178 mm 150 € per 100 8,76° 33,10 g/cm² 55,8 mm

Like I mentioned, please give the wildcat some thought using the .408 bullet with a BC of .94 with a 419 grain bullet with the brass from a 50 BMG.

I hope business is going well and if there is anything I can do to help, in any way, please let me know.


Stan Stennett


Big Gun please note LM-105 BC appears to be more like 0,93 than 0,87. Read more in Weltrekordgeschoß. The Idea to use good .408" Bullets in necked down .50 BMG Cases is not new, but You get rather big guns with very long Barrels. This may be tolerable for Sport purposes, but for Military use these Things become too big. Would You like to be Joke, like the Guy in the right Picture? Pretty useless, eh? For the Reason to build a Rifle You can handle in the Field. You will want a Rifle that blasts no too big Signature: Fire, Noise, 1 m² moving Leaves in the Bush You lie under to hide, a Pound Sand moving up into a Dust cloud from the Ground You lie, when You like to survive Your Shot on the Enemy.

If You have a high BC Bullet of minor Weight an Caliber You get the more ergonomic Rifle. That's all about in the Field. Pleas note we won the 7th Lapua Sniper Competition 2005 with LM-105, so there is some Proof to the Concept. We intend the next Stroke in August 2005:

Hello Lutz!

Thank You, We will do our best to win this competition also. There is more shooting in this competition (approx. 30-50 shots) and the competition will last for two days in a row. I also think that the wind conditions will be tougher than in Lohtaja. The longest shots will be at 1000-1100 meters if the competition is similar as in the previous years Now when I'm more familiar with the gun, I like it more. Even the long barrel doesn't bother me anymore. The rifle is easy to handle in the field. I could even do more research with the rifle, like testing how many bullets can be shot through the barrel before its worn down☺

With regards, Tom Marsti, Donnerstag, 28. Juli 2005 12:43

A .50" BMG can shoot well, see below. So if You have Monies to play with, be my Guest with the necked down .50" BMG in a big Gun, as above, but if You seriously want to achieve Long Range Goals in the Field You might consider smaller bore Bullets in short Twist Barrels in a not too big Rifle!

Sincerely, Lutz Möller 29th July 2005,


Hi (Entuschuldigung Sie bitte daß ich spreche nur ein bischen deutsch, ich lerne nun diese Sprache), First, let me tell you that your site has a lot of useful and interesting information. Congratulations. I am writing a JavaScript-based cartridge design program, and my current version (it is not even a beta, but maybe alpha) can estimate the BC and the mass of a given tangent ogive bullet, either with or without a boat-tail and it's muzzle velocity from a given barrel.

I want to switch the program into Haack's minimum drag shape, but I don't know anything about it. I want to know, how to estimate the volume and the outline for drawing. I want the formula for calculating the barrel twist too, if you know it. Can you help me out?

Miguel Torres, Freitag, 13. Juni 2003 09:30.

P.D. The file is my program, I am sorry but it's in spanish.

ABC Ballistic Computer

Dear Mr. Moeller:

I have read with some interest your discussions with Warren Jensen about the development of bullets and measuring and predicting their performance with computers. I have had the good fortune to design the computer that CheyTac uses and markets as the ABC. We have also developed and placed into production a Civilian version of the ABC. Consequently reading the discussion prompts me to offer a couple of comments.

Several times at long range I have had the opportunity to witness the accuracy of the first shot capability of the Intervention Rifle at extreme range using the ABC as the predictive device. I have also had the opportunity to meet and discuss with Art Pejsa the ins and outs of his device as we both live in Minnespolis, MN. After a thorough review of his device and ours, his method of prediction at long range leaves something to be desired. At the very best it may give you a solution but the shot will have to be taken to be sure.

The whole basis for the ABC is that once the gun is zeroed in to a specific range on a specific cartridge, whether the .408 or anything else that is in military use today, the ABC will absolutely give you a cold bore hit at any range you choose within the capabilities of the cartridge that you choose. The device is also as bullet proof as you can manufacture as we ship on industrial strength platforms that are both portable and very reliable.

I am curious as to how your developments are coming. Have you completed the development of your new bullets at this time? How about the action. I would personally be interested in acquiring one for my own use as I am a devotee of accurate rifles and like custom guns. In any case, please feel free to contact me at your convenience to discuss these matters. Thanks for your consideration; as I remain,

Very truly yours, John Paver, 7. September 2003 17:07, Managing Partner, Bradley Development, LLC

Dear Mr. Paver,

just before Midnight I came Home after I shot a 45 kg Wild Boar after 3 Misses! The last Miss on a Roe Deer, standing in the evening Sun in 10 m from a Hochsitz (more than perfect Condition). The two other ones Misses before yesterday night stalking the Boar on around 30 m in the half moonlit Night. After I missed the Roe Deer, I checked the Rifle. The Reason war a wrongly mounted Scope, that I took off to clean the Rifle.

I come back to you soon on the other Subject. Thanks for your Mail.

Drag comparision

Mr. Paver,

Bullet Flight i use Siacci`s, or if you will, Arthur Pejsa`s mathematical Approach to calculate a Point-Mass in Ballistic Flight. Pejsa has cross checked his Results with full 6-Freedom-degrees Calculations and practical experiences as well. He states, the Siacci-Pejsa Model ist accurater than the old G1, especially at slow Speeds, or long Ranges. This is obvious, when you look at below Graph from his Work:

Mayewski Model, made for blunt Projectiles, underestimates modern Spitzerbullets in the slow transsonic Region. Ist was a great mathematical Wolrk in its Time, in the 19th Century, but todays Bullets look different. So your Model is even Better, you say. Now let me know, how you calculate. Also a Photo of Your ABC-Device and an URL would help.

Sincerely, Lutz Möller

Dear Lutz:

I have attached a copy of our brochure that we use to promote the ABC. We calculate our predictions based on the real world behavior of the actual projectile flight. What we have found is that Pejsa's system does not apply with enough accuracy at the longer ranges.

Most predictors are close out to 600 to 900 yards but start to fall off as the distance lengthens. In discussing this with Art he readily admits that his method is for conventional or shorter range sniping in the military environment. What we have accomplished is to take the prediction out to 2,000 meters and beyond. WE routinely shoot at that distance and longer to demonstrate both the capability of the .408 CheyTac 419 gr round and the effectiveness of the ABC.

We have programmed the ABC to predict the behavior of all of the current rounds in military usage. We also have taken into consideration a variety of effectors that will change the behavior of various rounds at various ranges. Consequently we offer what is currently the only device which would allow you to zero your gun at a known range and then allow you to receive a solution at any other range that the cartridge is capable of reaching.

Obviously we are hampered by the fact that some bullets have different effective ranges so a two thousand meter solution for a .556 mm would not make any sense. The ABC does let you know that a two thousand meter solution is not possible. What we have done effectively is eliminate 'dumb' as much as possible from the procedure. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

In the case of Siacci and modified versions, it is apparent that when you try to calculate a solution with one drag factor and/or published ballistic coefficients, you are running the risk that the manufacturer is picking a high value or a wrong value to promote his product over someone elses. The only way, we found to be consistently successful is to measure each and every round to determine its behavior, meter by meter as it flies at known velocities.

Will you be at the S.H.O.T. Show in Las Vegas this coming February? If so I would like to meet you if possible. I am also interested in your action. Is it for sale yet?

John Paver

Dear John,

may i point out a unique Feature of the K11-Action (K for ,,kurz", or short and 11 for the 11th Version). Unlike common Bolt actions this one bear the Trigger in Front. The Reason was to be able to use a short and hence light Fire pin. The Benefit is short Delay from Trigger pull to ignition, hence minimizing the Shooter`s Movements Influence. Unfortunately the Action first has to work a little bit, before it may be sold. This one shall find its Way into the following Stock:



K11 Action in a free Recoil shaft as planned

. . . and as realised

The Stock also features some solitary Solutions. First the Scope is not mounted to the Action, but to the Barrel, as I trust no Thread as to precisely connect Action and Barrel. Now I eliminated one more possible Error source. The other Uniqueness is its ,,Bedding”. A Sheet metal spring holds the Barrel and a Rubber block dampens its Movement. (Do not look at the front suspension, that shall go). The Benefit is, the Barrel will not bend , when firing, hence introduce ,,no”, or better less, Vibrations. The Barrel may freely recoil some 5 Millimeters, before it reaches a Stop, while the Bullet still accelerates in the Barrel. All the Shaking starts only, after it left the Muzzle. Surely my long and efficient Muzzle brake is attached too.

The Barrel will be 90 cm long and sport progressive Twist down to almost 9°, to stabilize the 6,5cal long Haack bullet LM-105 (,,LM” either for Lapua Magnum or Lutz Möller and „105“ for the Cartridge length, as opposed to the regular .338 Lapua Magnum 93,5 mm.

The Rifle will be put to Work, to outshoot a .50BMG Barret over a Kilometer or so in windy Conditions. I calculated the BC to be around 0.9 and the obtainable Speed out of a 90 cm Barrel slightly above 900 m/s. So we will be comparable in Wind drift, but outperform the .50 BMG in Drop in a Word record proof shot. After that is done, the Gun will be sold. Before its done, we make no more Parts. I hope to finish the Rifle by Year 2003 end. Please call back later.

Sincerely, Lutz


He he, I thought that 20" seemed a little slow for marginally good flight. I will have to wait for another barrel. I really like the LM-105 bullet, but my barrel is a 1:10". I have a couple questions for you. I read a part about trajectories with the German (I'm about half German by the way) 120 mm smoothbore that had 20 cm groups at 3 km. Is that possible with a bullet about the size of .30", .338", and 40" caliber? I would really like my bullets to achieve this performance, if possible. I read that a guy was turning down the LRBT bullets from .408" to .400" and was hitting clay pigeons at one mile (1,6 km)

With your "discussion" you had with Warren Jensen he stated something like, "Balanced Flight Projectile". Mr. Jensen explains that to do balanced flight, you have to balance the linear drag with the rotational drag, to keep the very fine nose (meplat) of the bullet pointed direct into the oncoming air. It results in very little precession and yaw at extreme range and allows accurate flight back through transonic. This has been a here-to-fore very hard thing to do, in small arms. Mathematically you are at a great disadvantage trying to do balanced flight with a lead core bullet. The rotational mass/surface area ratio is too high." Is that possible without problems. I always read "articles written about the .408" having accuracy that is scary, that mainly comes from the people to designed the thing.

Then I go onto Longrangehunting.com and everyone is now saying that the guns show very poor accuracy and have terrible fouling. At the start nearly everyone on that site wanted a rifle in that caliber, now its down to pretty much no one and there hasn't been a topic on it for months. Is what they (LRBT) true and there is something that people are not doing or are they wrong. I want a bullet that will be insane accurate at super long range (1 mile plus)

I noticed that your LM-105 has a sharp point also. Is there something you do differently?

I also remember reading something in that article about solid bullets needing a certain gap in between the bore so fouling isn't soo bad. Also I hear that "driving bands" will clean out the grooves? I went on the GS Custom website a while ago and asked them if they could design a bullet that is similar or superior in performance to Warren's J40 and they said they could, but the bullet would be about 2" long and would require like 4 months of waiting. Is there any reason they are made in South Africa?

Sorry to make that so long, but I'm on a quest for knowledge if you will. I want to know every thing I can.

I'm also interested in making my own barrels, actions, and cartridges. Do you have any ideas on making an action cool, really cool, as well as being insanely accurate and function 110%, I want everything of mine to be the best it can be, if it is possible. That's my problem, I don't like it when stuff doesn't work, so I think things should be the best I can be otherwise what's the point of making it. I planed to use polygonal rifling in my barrels, because of the longer life and higher velocity. Is there any problems with those? Or would conventional rifling be better? If the metal will cooperate, my stuff would be made of something called Liquid Metal, as I watched it on the History Channel for its characteristics.
Again sorry to ask you so many questions.

Hey, I think I have another question for you. There is a wildcat called the .30 Wolf that was made by one of the guys on www.snipershide.com who now has his own website. He uses regular bullets of "conventional" design, but he also uses some thing different. He uses a 253 grain bullet made of powdered tungsten. He says it will whip the crap out of anything in the wind drift department as well as expand at nearly any impact velocity. Would a bullet such as this really be better than the LM-105 or other similar designs?

Hey, sorry I keep bugging you with questions, but I keep coming up with new ones. What are your thoughts on coating bullets for less friction in the bore. Is it worth it?

Thanks, Alex

.408 chey-tac


I was told to contact you again this summer to see how things were comming along with your work and if you had decided to make a .40 caliber bullet in the same type as the 8,5 mm (.338") . If you haven't made a .408 i would like to purchase some of your 8,5 mm (.338"). Here is my data from a new 368 grain solid copper BTHP .408 Bullet form Groove Bullets as well. Just in case you are interested.

With kindest regards, Troy, Dienstag, 25. Mai 2004 08:51


A .40" Cal. Bullet for the .408" Chey Tac never shipped, as the interested Person never payed. Communication stopped and that was it. However this must not remain so. Depending what your Goal is several opportunities exist:

A Bullet for the predominant 13 Inch Twist. That will be aerodynamically just slightly better that the LRB Design, as that is quit good. But because of a low friction Design and different Material you may upload the Bullet compared to the LRB high Friction design and keep the Barrel cooler and let is live longer.

A Bullet for a shorter Twist (you name it) with greatly enhanced ballistic Performance, especially Wind drift.

I currently have a Hunt 8,5 mm (.338”) Hunt bullet available. A Sport version less hollow Point can easily be made. Again this is for 10 Inch Twist and if you go for shorter Twist aerodynamic Performance can easily be improved.

LM-105 Dreier

Such long Cigars have their Price and for new Designs Minimum order + Shipping, to cover Calculation, Programming and set up. The very slender Design slows machinery down and great length elongates Machining path and Time, so they will always be the expensive kind, no matter who makes them!

So if your application fits in there, please let me know. Performance data will be given!

Sincerely, Lutz, 25th May 2004

Long Range Question

Dear Mr. Moeller,

I have been following some of your posts concerning the .408. My interest is in long range target shooting (paper targets and steel plates). This past week I shot a friends .338 Lapua with 300 gr bullets. This experience only made my urge for ultra long range shooting stronger. I have a question concerning line of departure (shooting angle).

.338 Lapua 300gr Sierra Matchkings at 2800 fps. 1300 feet elevation, 80 degrees temp.

We were shooting from a hill about 80-100 feet higher than the target. The ranged distance to the rock was 2450 yards with my Wild Swiss range finder (I calibrated it on a know distance range of 1000 yards= 915 meters.

We shot at various distances before going to 2450 yards. We shot at 1200, 1600 yards and 1750 yards.

I put on 125 minutes of angle from our 100 yard zero. In order for us to hit around the target at 2450 yards we had to aim significantly above the original impact location (target). My calculations using the Ohler ballistics program call for about 125 minutes of angle elevation at 2450 yards. Can you give me insight as to why we had to aim significantly higher (40 feet above the bullet impact). Bullet flight time was about 5-5.5 seconds. I was counting once the gun went off until I saw the puff of smoke.

What diameters and weights of target bullets do you make. My friend and I shoot 6.5, 30, 338 and are looking for the next step up to get us some extra distance (.40 or .50 cal). What are your recommendations.

Do you have any samples of bullets you could send me. If so my address is listed below.

Best Regards, Corbin Shell, Freitag, 11. Juni 2004 05:17

Dear Mr. Shell,

the easiest and fastest Way to predict interior and exterior Ballistics, and for me the fastest Way to answer your Question, is to buy Hartmut Brömels QuickLoad with QuickTarget, available in German and English (switchable). I took the Bullet Data for the Sierra MK from the Sierra supplied Database, then worked a Load for your .338 Lapua Magnum with the interior Ballistic Program QuickLoad, then imported the Data in QuickTarget, changed the Atmosphere to your Inputs, set the final Distance and pushed the Button. Below is the Screen output for Elevation in MoA:

As you see in the Graph for Your 2246 m, the elevation should be 132 MoA. You had already set you Rifle with 5 MoA for 91,4 m, so the total was 130 Moa, just 2 Moa short of the required 132 MoA. Would this Error explain 12,2 m Miss>

Name Value Unit Explanation
Circle radius 2246 m Your Distance
Circle Diameter 4493 m Radius times 2
Circle circumference 14116 m Diameter times p (3,1415)
39 m Circumference Circumference by 360
1' or Minute of Angle MoA 0,65 m Circumference Degree by 60
actual Miss 12,2 m Circumference
actual Miss 19 MoA

No! 2 Moa Error would account only for 1,3 m Error, less than a Man tall. The Miss was 17 MoA further away. And i could only put in Guesses for Air density, barometric Pressure and Humidity, as no Date were known. So you Start Data were, if not perfect, reasonable within Range.

Current English Book Books on Ballistics to read would be available Dr. Geoffrey Kolbe of http://www.border-barrels.com/homepage.php (basic) and Prof. Arthur Pejsa http://www.pejsa.com/. The last one bases on old (but not mentioned, why?) mathematical Findings from Italian Ballistician d'Antonio from 1834 and his Predecessor Siacci. Refuse not the old Age. The Model is superior to the Mayewski-Ingalls Modell, Sierra uses for their Bullet data and Brömel for his QuickLoad. Everyone knows this, but to stick to the russian Mayewski Model, who used blunt 1888 Krupp artillerey shell flight data for his Model, that American Ingalls then translated and moved into this Foot, Inch and so on Mess, is just a common Habit. Both Peijsa and Brian Fields from Lex Talus Corporation http://www.precisionworkbench.com/ offer Software after d'Antonio with recent Extensions by Arthur Pejsa. I recommend to to use that.

An Explanation, why to do so, less reading the Books, can be found in http://www.precisionworkbench.com/4.php The Drag comparision graph on that Page from Pejsas Book, you also find here under Drag Comparision, tells it all!

Your Bullet flies safely speedy above the trans sonic Range to about 1200 m. Then the Problem start. To precisely calculate and predict the Flight well into the subsonic Range, is a difficult Task. I have started to implement such a Program on my Page under Bullet flight, but that Program contains Errors below 425 m/s, that i never botherd to fix, as the Bullets then already fall like Stone out of the Sky. Maybe i should fix that now, to precisely answer your Question.

I currently only start to expand the Hunt bullet Line Lutz Möller KJG into Sportbullets. So in mid June 2004 the Bullets available is the LM-105 for a 9° progressive Twist .338" Barrel. Ready for Production are the 6 mm and the .408". Others are soon to com, including mainly the 6,5 mm and the unavaoidable .30" as well. I might put them together on another Page soon (within weeks) and will link from here.

I give no Samples, but actually sell Bullets.

Sincerely,Lutz Möller 11th June 2004



Thanks for your reply. How do I get a hold of some of your bullets here in the USA. Do you have someone distributing them here in the USA. If so, who? What is the cost for your .338" and .408" bullets.

Thanks, Corbin, Freitag, 11. Juni 2004 14:47

.408” Up to now I have no Distributor in the U.S.A. To ship them prepaid is no Problem though. Airfreight is expensive. Sea + Land is cheaper. So far my Attempts, to supply Bullets to potential Clients in the U.S.A., were of little Fortune. So let me turn the Ball to You: Which Performance, as in the .408” Case outlined, would warrant which Price and Volume?

If I could get hold of Contacts to the say 400 existing .408” Chey Tac Rifle owners, I might have the Possibility to scale Volume up, to bring Prices down.

.338“ You cannot shoot the LM-105 out of a standard .338” LM Barrel with 254 mm Twist. You need much steeper Angles!

I will soon come up with a .338” Performance Bullet for 254 mm Twist. But that is not ready yet. First 6,5 mm. then .30” then .338”.

Please watch Kupfersportgeschosse for new Sportbullets.

Sincerely, Lutz,



I read the BC-Webpage and wonder, what the progress is on your action. Have you finished it? Do you have any additional information about it? The information in your discussion with LRB mentions it but not in any detail. Thank you. I would be interested in hearing about your progress.

Mike Collins, Donnerstag, 21. Oktober 2004 21:01

Dear Mr. Collins,

I added under K11 a current Picture of the finished K11 Rifle. Right now in October 2004 we shoot it to develop suitable Loads. The soft Suspension devlops not the Load independency, we hoped fore. So it's just an arkward looking Monster. The real Beauty lies inside, the short Ignition delay from the shortened Bolt. Meanwhile i know all the Mistakes, that made this Design painful to make and learned my Lesson. I have Manufacturing facilities at Hand to be able to design and manufacture anything You would like, provided you want 20+ Pieces, to get a decent Price. The first one costs the real Money in CNC-Manufacturing, Followers come at a Fraction.

We still have to prove the K11 in real Live in windy Condition on long Ranges. A Sako TRG-42 with the same Barrel will be used as a Standard to judge against. So pleas ask again for the Progress.

Please read Small Caliber Engraving Force Measurements by Mr. Jeff Siewert about the Bullet's Engrave forces, Pressure and Friction. Mr. Siewert currently has some of my Bullets under Trial and we all wait for Results, probably not available before December 2004. So please ask again later.

Sincerely, Lutz Möller 21st October 2004

Progressive Barrel






EDUARDO, 2nd January 2005

Dear Eduardo,

long slender Bullets drift in Wind less, than regular ones. On long Ranges Wind drift limits the Ability to hit a given Target more than anything else. Therefore the Shooters Ability "to read the Wind" and act accordingly it the Skill to concentrate on, to improve the Hit-Ratio. While I shall not teach You that, I can give You a Bullet to Ease Your Pain. In coarse Terms double BC halves the Wind drift. The Physics behind are slightly more complicated, but just to remember this, drives many Decisions in the right Direction. The other Launch- and Flight Parameters are well understood and can quite well be managed by the Constructor and the Shooter, but the Wind over the Distance remains unknown. So I must stress the Fact, to minimize Wind drift is an unsubstitutable Necessity for the Long range Shooter. I, as a Constructor can only give You a higher BC Bullet, to ease You Pain.

The LM-105 is 6,5 Calibres long, probably the longest Bullet ever to fly spin stainlized. Read Beat Kneubuehls english Work "How long can a spin stabilized Bullet be?"

We call a Twist progressive, when the Turn rate increases from a shallow to a steep Angle, o from long to short Twist length. Lothar Walther has Tools, Machinery and makes progressive twist Barrels for the LM-105. The Bullet flies well with the final 9° Twist. The maximum Gas pressure pushes the Bullet just a few Centimeters after it left the Case, so quite early in the accelerated Travel along the Barrel. To improve Performance and Barrel live, the LM-105 is a low Friction design that easily slips into the Lands, minimizing the engraving Force. While conventional jacketed Lead Bullets, like You Sierra, move only by about 250 bar Pressure, the LM-105 already accelerates from 150 bar onwards. So You can and must upload the Charge to yield higher Speeds at the same Pressure. You understand now, which Incentive drives us. We want the fastest possible Speed, at a given Pressure Limit. My LM-105 Drive band yields just that, less Pressure for more Powder for more Speed out of a long Barrel.

The Lost Rive Full shank solid design, just like Barnes Solids in Hunt rifles, requires about 400 bar to barely move. Engraving forces with such Solids are that high, almost triple cmpatr4d to my low Friction design. of f Higher Pressure therefore requires with such Bullets at a given Pressure limit less Powder, means less Peed, more Fowling, faster Warming, more Fouling and shorter Barrel live. Pleas read further from the downloadable Power point presentation

Small Caliber Engraving Force Measurements

Jeff Siewert, Systems Engineer

Arrow Tech Associates

1233 Shelburne Rd., Suite D-8 S.

Burlington, Vt. 05403

Phone 802-865-3460 x19


I supplied Mr. Siewert some Low friction drive band copper hunt bullets in 7,6 mm. He hopes to have them measured soon.

The faster the Bullet accelerates and steeper the Twist angle from shorter Twist is, the higher Torque tears the Drive Bands. As we want the Drive bands as small as possible to reduce Friction, engraving Force, Barrel warming and Fouling and increase usable Barrel live, we have a Paradox problem, that is we want small Drive Bands an steep Twist. Both is contradictory. The escape the Trap, a progressive Twist comes handy. Only near the Chamber the Pressure is high. Closer to the Muzzle, the Pressure abated. As the shearing Torques increases with high Pressure and diminishes with lower Pressure we let Lothar Walther move the steep Twist towards the Muzzle and start only with, say, half that Rate near the Chamber. The Drive bands must be adjusted for the rising Twist Angle and they are. Perfect sealing against blow by results as a nice side Effect.

So be assured, the LM-105 advances the Art to shoot a Bullet for long ranges in many Aspects. You should use a 90 cm long progressive Twist Barrel with 9° final Twist for best Results out of a .338" LM Cartridge. Lothar Walther will be happy to supply You such a Barrel and I will as well supply LM-105 Bullets.

You will get Rifle being able to effectively compete against a .50" BMG or .408" Cheyenne Tactical with the best available Bullets in long Range Wind drift and Trajectory, but need the 90 cm Barrel. So the thing is for serious tactical applications too long, but to have Fun on the Range and raise a couple of Eyebrows, you wil get the best Gear possible, as far as I currently know.

Lutz Möller , 2nd January 2005




LM: You may order LM-105 Bullets from me and a suitable Gain Twist Barrel from Lothar Walther.


LM: This please check with Lothar Walther. If that is inconvenient for You, I shall help out. Please advise!


LM: 100 Pcs, but let me check on Price. You are in the 1,3 € Range or above per Piece.


.338" LM Cartridge with LM-105 Bullet, seated to 105 mm, 90 cm Barrel
Powder Load Speed
Norma MRP 5,9 g 910 m/s
Ramshot Magnum 6,3 g 914 m/s
Vihtavuori N560 5,9 g 919 m/s


YOURS TRULY, EDUARDO, Sonntag, 2. Januar 2005 20:33

Welcome, Lutz Möller

.50" BMG


thanks for Your Mail. See how my .50" Cal Bullets shoot (not out of a M2, but a regular Bolt action Rifle).

Hallo Lutz,

look at the 100 m 12,7 mm MSG Hits. Pleas note on the upper Picture the Shot low left and on the lower Picture the Shot left are "Cold Bore Shots". Neglecting the CBS the biggest outer Diameter for each 4 Shots is 18 an 22 mm.


Such looks my 12,7 mm MSG bullet :

12,7 mm MSG for the .50" BMG

Best Regards, L. S. , Tuesday, 21. December 2004 08:10 (LM: I translated the Message from German into English)

So Roy, You see Accuracy can even be achieved with my .50" BMG from a plain old Bolt action Rifle. One hit is enough. I wonder, why I would like an M2 instead, if the first Hit counts. The Bullets are available to purchase and shoot well from a regular 1:13 Inch Twist. Longer Bullets are Available for shorter Twists and longer Ranges.

Sincerely, Lutz

p.s. Just let me add, the Shooter just calculated the 12,7 mm MSG Loads for the .50" BMG with QuickLoad, stuffed Primers, Powder and Bullets into the Case and shot the Groups from the cold Bore. What more can You ask for?

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