Path / Heimat / 8,5 mm / LM-105
Content Abstract | History | Vietnam | The Problem | Comparision | Old .50 BMG | The Performance | Current Gear is inadequate | The Solution | Twist | LM 105 Bullet Barrel dimensions | Drive Band Design | TRG-42 Barrels available | Hello from Australia | 338 LM und 50 BMG | LM 105 Radar Data | Rifle twist rate concerns
Abstract | History | Vietnam | The Problem | Comparision | Old 50 BMG | Performance | Current Gear is inadequate | Solution
Hallo Herr Möller ich möchte das LM 105. Bieten Sie dafür Ladedaten? Kann man das LM 105 auch aus einem gewöhnlichen Lauf einer Blaser R8 verschießen und gute Ergebnisse erzielen.
LM: Nein. Das Geschoß biete ich nicht an. Man bräuchte Sonderläufe. Current Gear is inadequate Siehe "Twist"
Mit freundlichem Gruß, Marcel Rothe, Freitag, 8. September 2017 14:03
Long Ranges indispensably need long and slender Bullets. On long Ranges wind slipping Bullets buck the unknown Wind to increase Lethality by a wide Margin (LM-105 over 338 Lock Base almost doubles Lethality from the same Cartridge).Long slender Bullets must not be big Caliber or or heavy Mass. Compare a conventional 50 BMG Ball round a .338 Lapua Magnum with LM-105 and find 19,4 g Mass outshot 48,6g or the 2½ fold!Lightweight long slender Bullest, reduce Rifle and Ammunition Weigth and Recoil. That correspondingly drops 2½ fold.Such smaller Cartridges, like the 338 LM may be easily moderated, to take Flash, Recoil, Dust and some Sound, to greatly reduce Signature, hence reduce the Shooters Visibility on his Mission. Before his Mission allow him to train with less Pain, hence speed Training an increase Confidence and hence Performance.Time has come to kick out heavy old big blunt Projectiles and move forward to new small light long slender Projectiles to perform further with Ease! I stay put to demonstrate! LM 105 won the Lapua Sniper Competion 2005.
The Task to precisely hit the Enemy sometimes requires, especially in mountainous Regions, long Shots. In the Korean War over a half Century ago the North Koreans resorted to Russian Surplus 14,5 x 114 Degtjarev Anti tank rifles as a means to shoot further down the Road.
left: 14,5x 114 Degtjarev Anti tank rifle ammunition with my Precision bullets | right 5,6 mm Bullet and Cartridge
Very long historical 14,5 x 114 Degtjarev anti Tank Rifle for recreational Plinking
In Vietnam US Snipers first used the M2 Machine gun for the 50 BMG Cartridge, that could release single shots and was equipped with a 10 x Unertl Scope
M2 Machine Gun
The 50BMG Cartridge is a close Copy of the German 13 mm Mauser Anti tank rifle from WW1, now 98 Year ago.
British Troops in WW1 before a British Tank inspect a German 13 mm Mauser Rifle
In Vietnam the average G. I. already used today's small 5,6x43 NATO Cartridge for close Encounters and rapid fire in a spray-and-pray Manner, taking about 55.000 Rounds for one Enemy Casualty. Snipers there used .30-06 Springfield Rifles or misused said M2 Machine gun with the 50BMG with about 1,5 Cartridges per Hit rather efficiently.Since then conventional Wisdom proposed big Cartridges for precise long range Work. Must that be so? No!A smarter Approach will equip the demanding Sniper with a potent Weapon that drains not so much from his Transport capabilities and disturbs him not so much with Recoil up to Flinching when shooting and leaves him with less Signature (Fire, Sound, Dust, Leave Movement, without any Compromise in Range or Precision or Performance. The latter actually will increase. See the Solution.Lutz Moeller, 3. June 2006
Townsville, Australia (June 11, 2005) Australian army personnel embark USS Boxer (LHD 4) in Townsville, Australia, June 11 in preparation for Talisman Saber 2005, a joint operation involving more than 16,000 service members from Australia and the United States. U.S. Navy photo by Photographer's Mate 2nd Class Daniel A. Jones.
Length in mm: The 50 BMG compared to the 338 Lapua Magnum with LM-105
The LM-105 for this Comparison is fired from a 105 mm long (hence the Name) 338 Lapua Magnum Cartridge in a Gain twist barrel with 9 degrees Twist angle (not Inch length!).
The historical approach to use bigger Cartridges to longer Ranges might be understandable from the Circumstances and especially from a Logistics standpoint, but is a ballistic Error. The regular 50 BMG M33 Ball Ammunition, that most Armies list in their Supply chain, is rather inadequate for the intended Purpose, namely to precisely defeat single Targets on long Ranges. Most the terrible Wind drift (the worst of the four compared Bullets) plus the inadequate Accuracy oft the standard Machine gun fodder, combined its curved Trajectory declass the Round.
Hornady A-Max bullet for the 50 BMG
Precise and better wind bucking Rounds can for Instance be built with the Hornady A-Max Match bullet, but such a Round is not in the standard military Supply Chain. Its Availability was the Key advantage in its first Use for Sniping in Vietnam over 40 Years ago. But when the Key advantage can lo longer be banked upon, the Round in itself becomes questionable. The 50 BMG has considerable Draw backs:
Tough to shoot, difficult to train, hardly ever fully handled by the Sniper without Fear, but fearless Shooting results in best Hits! The aggressive Blast limits Training and hence Shooters Capabilities to peacefully rest in inner Comfort to aim and hit well! The Signature (Flash, Noise, Dust or Vegetation movement) easily unveil the Snipers Position to Enemy forces, leaving the Sniper quite vulnerable to Counter measures! Both the Rifle and the Ammunition are large and heavy, restricting Movement and absorbing Energy! The Wind drift is less than stellar, but today Wind drift is the only remaining unknown ballistic Input, the Sniper must apply from his Experience an Judgment.
Tough to shoot, difficult to train, hardly ever fully handled by the Sniper without Fear, but fearless Shooting results in best Hits!
The aggressive Blast limits Training and hence Shooters Capabilities to peacefully rest in inner Comfort to aim and hit well!
The Signature (Flash, Noise, Dust or Vegetation movement) easily unveil the Snipers Position to Enemy forces, leaving the Sniper quite vulnerable to Counter measures!
Both the Rifle and the Ammunition are large and heavy, restricting Movement and absorbing Energy!
The Wind drift is less than stellar, but today Wind drift is the only remaining unknown ballistic Input, the Sniper must apply from his Experience an Judgment.
Again, when the Round disturbs long, repeated and enduring Training in relative Comfort, such Experience cannot be built up and henceforth such Judgment must remain lousy Guess work, inadequate in any deadly Environment, where the Enemy just waits for a Movement from the other side. In a Man-to-Man-dependent Conflict (not the Big number game) between Snipers, Intelligence and Knowledge usually wins. Surveillance and Knowledge behind Patience are the key Ingredients to both achieve the Task and to survive. To shoot without a high Probability to defeat the Target just feeds Information to the Other Side. While any Hunter likes to get his Prey he even more likes to return to Home. Imprecise Shooting in a Sniper contest risks that!
The 338 Lapua Magnum with standard Lock Base Ball Ammunition has one Advantages over the 50 BMG! Together with the accompanying much lighter Rifle, the saved Weight grants the carrying Solder a welcome Relief from his heavy Burden, usable to conserve Energy or to extend the Roaming distance off Supply! But the 338 Lapua Magnum with standard Lock Base Ball Ammunition suffers one Disadvantages against the 50 BMG! Wind drift unfortunately is worse! With the standard Lock Base Ball Ammunition the 338 Lapua Magnum in other Words does not deliver Performance up to its full Potential. That only does the LM-105.
The 338 Lapua Magnum with standard Lock Base Ball Ammunition has one Advantages over the 50 BMG!
Together with the accompanying much lighter Rifle, the saved Weight grants the carrying Solder a welcome Relief from his heavy Burden, usable to conserve Energy or to extend the Roaming distance off Supply!
But the 338 Lapua Magnum with standard Lock Base Ball Ammunition suffers one Disadvantages against the 50 BMG!
Wind drift unfortunately is worse!
With the standard Lock Base Ball Ammunition the 338 Lapua Magnum in other Words does not deliver Performance up to its full Potential. That only does the LM-105.
Lutz Möller will demonstrate the LM-105 Bullet on Site in the Country to deliver all together very low Wind drift, Accuracy and flat Trajectory together.
Lutz Möller with TRG-42 with Feuerschlucker
Performance is proven.
Lutz Möller in Africa with LM-105
In the green in the Middle in 457 stands an Oryx in the Bush
Looking back 400 to the Kliff
LM 105 shot the Oryx in 456 m as planned
LM-105 in- and out
LM-105 Heart shot exit
LM-105 Lung pemetration
The LM-105 won the 2005 Lapua Sniper Cup!
Current repeating Rifles loose their Ability to be Repeaters with the long LM-105 Bullet in the 338 LM Round, designed to be just 93,5 mm short. Current Barrels in 338 LM Rifles will not stabilize the LM-105.
New Rifles need to be built to order to first accommodate the wind bucking and hence indispensable long Cartridges and second to suit all other Needs. I will do just that on Order.
There is no Stability with the LM-105 in 1:10 Twist. They soon would fly sideways. The Bullet tip is Haack Contour shaped and is 6,5 Calibres long. I needs a 9 Degrees Twist (~ 1 Turn in 176 mm ).
The LM-105 was made to be shot from .338“ Lapua Magnum that have the usual Bore- and Grove diameters, that is Bore 8,38 mm Grove 8,58 mm 6 Grooves Grove width 2,79 mm Look up Specifications from CIP or SAAMI but reduce Throat Angle to 338 WM Angle. We use a 900 mm Barrel and get 915 m/s Muzzle Velocity at moderate Pressures for the Cartridge.
Small an multiple Drive bands introduce a Micro turbulence, that later downstream reduced the Macro turbulence, when the Stream cannot follow. In sum that reduced Drag.
The Drive bands must in one Instance be larger enough to take the Land's Shear force, when the accelerated Rotation applies Torque on them, but in the same Instance be small enough not to exhibit too much Resistance in the Throat against Engraving and in the same Instance be as small as possible to reduce Friction down the Barrel. Many Designers fail to optimize their Bullets for a suitable Compromise. Specially those, that have no Drive bands at all. The ">LM-105 is very close. Why only close? Because You need some Margin against Rifle-to-Rifle-Variation and Throat erosion over Time.
">LM-105 and SakoTRG-42 with Moderator hunted in Africa 2009
Lutz Hello again from Australia! I haven’t received any reply from you regarding either your plans to come to Australia in May to hunt camels or whether you will be in Dresden in early April (I will be in Germany and will visit you on 06 April 2010, if you are there). I would also like to pick up some of your LM-119 projectiles while there. Please be aware that the Police in my state (South Australia) placed a ban on new .338 Lapua Magnum rifles, as they have moved to ban military long range sniper calibers. So if you intended to bring a rifle in .338 Lapua Magnum, you may have difficulty gaining the import approvals. The same applies to .375 CheyTac. This may not apply in the Northern Territory (the state to the north of South Australia), but I am unsure. Regards, Daryl Lenkic, Montag, 15. März 2010 15:11
Sehr geehrter Herr Möller Wir haben letzten Samstag betreffend progressivem Drall für 338 Lapua Magnum miteinander telefoniert. Ich habe mich in der Zwischenzeit bei der Firma Lothar Walter erkundigt. Dr. Frank Walter hat mir folgende Auskunft und Empfehlungen gegeben:
Die Lauflänge sei bis 810 mm Länge frei wählbar
LM: Ja.
Der Anfangsdrall sei 16" und steigere sich bis 8" Enddrall und am Schluß.
LM: Für mein LM 105 betrage der Anfangsdrallwinkel 4,5° und der endliche 9°! Mit Zoll habe ich nichts am Hut!
Bei langen Läufen sei ein gleicher Drall von 3-4 Geschoßlängen sinnvoll
Laufkontur und -dicke seien frei wählbar
Er hat mir aber geraten, mit dem Geschoßhersteller diese Angaben nochmals zu besprechen, da er nicht alle Geschosse und Eigenheiten bis ins Detail kenne.
LM: Angemessen! Was ist Ihre Meinung zu diesen Angaben?
LM: Richtig. Für eine Antwort bedanke ich mich. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Martin Berchtold, Samstag, 28. Januar 2012 20:45
Black tipped Lutz Möller Ammunition group with LM-105
Read Eduardo about the Finnsniper
.338 Twist 8" - LM105 Mass (ref)=18.921 g, Diameter (ref)=8.585 mm R(m) Mach CD BC(G1) BC(G7) BC(G8) 50 2.216 0.2487 0.8331 0.4186 0.4500 100 2.165 0.2524 0.8292 0.4168 0.4509 150 2.114 0.2560 0.8262 0.4153 0.4522 200 2.064 0.2596 0.8234 0.4138 0.4534 250 2.014 0.2631 0.8206 0.4124 0.4546 300 1.964 0.2669 0.8183 0.4112 0.4558 350 1.915 0.2706 0.8161 0.4101 0.4571 400 1.867 0.2744 0.8139 0.4089 0.4581 450 1.819 0.2782 0.8116 0.4078 0.4591 500 1.772 0.2819 0.8090 0.4077 0.4606 550 1.726 0.2856 0.8062 0.4083 0.4623 600 1.680 0.2894 0.8031 0.4087 0.4637 650 1.635 0.2934 0.7997 0.4089 0.4648 700 1.590 0.2972 0.7960 0.4093 0.4661 750 1.546 0.3010 0.7915 0.4106 0.4677 800 1.503 0.3046 0.7871 0.4119 0.4693 850 1.461 0.3083 0.7810 0.4140 0.4708 900 1.419 0.3119 0.7749 0.4161 0.4723 950 1.378 0.3156 0.7661 0.4181 0.4736 1000 1.337 0.3193 0.7553 0.4201 0.4750 1050 1.298 0.3230 0.7445 0.4221 0.4763 1100 1.259 0.3262 0.7284 0.4244 0.4776 1150 1.221 0.3294 0.7129 0.4266 0.4789 1200 1.184 0.3320 0.6936 0.4290 0.4807 1250 1.147 0.3339 0.6695 0.4317 0.4831 1300 1.112 0.3358 0.6462 0.4344 0.4855 1350 1.078 0.3365 0.6164 0.4366 0.4862 1400 1.045 0.3327 0.5886 0.4406 0.4868 1450 1.013 0.3224 0.5631 0.4375 0.4731 1500 0.986 0.2536 0.6624 0.4751 0.5242 1550 0.966 0.1830 0.8620 0.5239 0.6113 1600 0.951 0.1564 0.9576 0.4904 0.6101 1650 0.938 0.1495 0.9584 0.4666 0.6011 1700 0.925 0.1448 0.9474 0.4441 0.5913 1750 0.913 0.1459 0.8996 0.4044 0.5585 1800 0.901 0.1472 0.8515 0.3650 0.5256 1850 0.889 0.1472 0.8245 0.3562 0.5233 1900 0.877 0.1470 0.7995 0.3500 0.5235 1950 0.865 0.1481 0.7682 0.3410 0.5192 2000 0.853 0.1495 0.7364 0.3316 0.5142 2050 0.842 0.1526 0.6969 0.3186 0.5034 2100 0.830 0.1566 0.6556 0.3046 0.4905 2150 0.818 0.1593 0.6207 0.2934 0.4819 2200 0.806 0.1611 0.5904 0.2842 0.4763 2250 0.794 0.1629 0.5668 0.2774 0.4707 2300 0.783 0.1648 0.5503 0.2732 0.4652 2350 0.771 0.1667 0.5343 0.2690 0.4599 2400 0.759 0.1686 0.5187 0.2650 0.4547 2450 0.748 0.1703 0.5042 0.2613 0.4501 2500 0.737 0.1712 0.4925 0.2591 0.4480 2550 0.725 0.1720 0.4811 0.2569 0.4459 2600 0.714 0.1728 0.4700 0.2548 0.4438 2650 0.703 0.1736 0.4591 0.2527 0.4418 2700 0.692 0.1735 0.4544 0.2523 0.4419 2750 0.682 0.1731 0.4523 0.2527 0.4429 2800 0.672 0.1730 0.4496 0.2527 0.4432 2850 0.662 0.1734 0.4456 0.2519 0.4423 2900 0.652 0.1737 0.4418 0.2512 0.4413 2950 0.642 0.1738 0.4388 0.2509 0.4412 3000 0.632 0.1738 0.4360 0.2507 0.4412
Compare LM 105 Radar Data to 50 BMG MSG 1273 Radar Data and understand, why aerodynamic Bullets win.
Some really love my Bullets. The number their Cars accordingly. Wonderful!
Lutz Möller June 2015
Betreff: Kontakt zu Jim Boatright - about Rifling Twist Rate ConcernsHallo Herr Möller,habe immer mal wieder mit Bewunderung auf Ihre Seite geschaut.Seit einiger Zeit habe ich eine lose Email-Brieffreundschaft mit Jim Boatright. Er entwirft „turned copper Ultra-Low-Drag rifle bullets”. Den mathematischen Unterbau seiner Papers verstehe ich nicht ganz, lese sie aber immer mit großem RespektViele Grüße, Bernd Kärcher, Dienstag, 18. Februar 2020 13:44
An Answer to this.
Jim,Your Concerns about Rifle twist Rates seem valid to me. When You want ultra low Drag, You end up with rather long Bullets. I fired those successully some 15 Years ago. Read LM-105 | Lapua Sniper Competition, Twist. Apperently You handle the Theory well, but first Things first:When I recall, You were experiencing som 0.8 MoA Accuracies. Now, that's not accurate, as I say.
Number one: To shoot any Bullet accurate, place it in the Middle in Line with the Barrel (Johan Loubser). Seems old, not so special. Yes it is, but if not given, destroys Accuracy. Your Reloding Equipment must hold the Neck (in Circumfence), while You seat Bullet in Contact. No Space at all. If the Concentricy of the Bullet in ready Cartridge is less than 0,02 mm (less than at thousand of an Inch), You will not reach best accuracy.
Number two: Long Bullets aggravate the Problem. Long Bullets with long Boattails further. The Gas pushes the Bullet some ten Calibers bofore the Muzzle. The Push is not even, it's chaotic!
You need a propper and tight Device to control the Gas flow around the Bullet for the first ten Calibers before the Muzzle:
Now: What do You get from all that Efforts?
A Bullet well in the Middle and in Line with the Barrel Number will rotate along the Rifles in Line with the Barrel (if straight). If the Bullet is rotationally balanced (a turned Bullet should be), when leaving the Muzzle, it will continue the Path (not jump from Imbalance, to now rotate about its Mass center. When the Load is tuned to the Gun in a "Sweet Spot", the Barrel will move least, in the Moment, the Bullet leaves. This, means less Yaw. That's what You want. Make sure You get it, befor You contamplate about the Bullet istselfRegards Lutz
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